http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object
Can this spell be used to permanently change a player into a monster?
Human to Ogre, permanent?
Lizardfolk to Dragon, permanent?
Dragon corpse to Dragonhide plate, permanent?
Yes and no... it does not change the creatures type due to the polymorph subschool rules. You gain certain static bonuses based on the spell that would have otherwise allowed such a transformation (dragon form for instance), a bonus to disguise checks, and any other special abilities, resistances, and attacks that would have been gained by casting the requisite spell... the only difference is duration.
Remember "permanent" =\= "instantaneous" as far as duration goes... if wall of stone had a duration of permanent it could at any time be dispelled and it would disappear... instantaneous is a true creation/change, permanent is just a 'really really long time'.
Stubs McKenzie wrote:
Remember "permanent" =\= "instantaneous" as far as duration goes... if wall of stone had a duration of permanent it could at any time be dispelled and it would disappear... instantaneous is a true creation/change, permanent is just a 'really really long time'.
I hadn't thought of dispelling it when I saw the spell... Oh well, so much for my magical sex change business.
Seriously though, until hit with a dispel, the change will be permanent and there is no reason that you can't turn your character into certain forms of monster. The problem is getting the duration factor high enough.
Human to Ogre: both animals, both mammals, changing into something of lower intelligence: Duration Factor 9: Permanent
Lizardfolk to Dragon: you can argue that they're both animals and reptiles: Duration Factor 7: 1 week duration
You could go for a young dragon to add same size. However, the DM could easily go with the fact that dragons weren't actually reptiles in 3.5.
Dragon corpse to Dragonhide plate... Let's rephrase
Piece of Dragon corpse to Dragonhide plate: Same size, both pieces of a dead dragon (kingdom and class), related: Duration Factor 11: Permanent
Of course, you could also use Fabricate to change the Dragon corpse to Dragonhide plate. It would be a better choice since it's lower level and can't be dispelled. Fabricate says it can't be used on creatures but I would say that a dead dragon wouldn't be considered a creature anymore.
You might want to consult the DM before doing this. He would probably just end up dispelling it unless you were planning to RP all the difficulties that come with being a monster. An ogre would have a hard time convincing the town guard to let him enter the town. Any claims that you are a human under a spell would either be ignored or lead to them calling a wizard to reverse the spell. Plus, your character would have to come to terms with the fact that he's no longer human.
OldManAlexi wrote: I would say that a dead dragon wouldn't be considered a creature anymore. Correct: Dead creatures are objects.
How would one handle it if say you used it to become a construct, or outsider? There are no spells to do that, except this. You can cast this on objects by the way. Being able to do this for 1200gp has me thinking.
I gotta say, there's a whole bunch of players I'd like to polymorph, if any spell would actually work on them...
The really really important part of the spell, the part the half-neuters it, is that it does not change your type/subtype at all... if you were an elven wizard before the spell, you are an elven wizard with a +10 on your disguise check to look like a dragon now
the other half of the neutering is completed by being seemingly limited to the list of spells on what it can effectively change you, or a rock, into.
You cant turn into a giant, an ooze, a construct, undead, a rock (PAO says you can change a rock into something, but not something into a rock -_-), or anything else that the listed spells doesn't already allow. I don't think it should be that way, or if it isn't it should be spelled out in the spell that it isn't limited to the normal polymorph subschool rules, but without any of that info on paper....
I was thinking of using it to change my lizardfolk character into a dragon of the same size and same or less intelligent to be so on a permanent basis.
What happens if you use this on a familiar or animal companion? Would this give the ability to have a paladin with a permanent T-Rex mount?
Adamantine Dragon wrote: I gotta say, there's a whole bunch of players I'd like to polymorph, if any spell would actually work on them... Here here! Hell I would polymorph myself into a younger, fitter version of me!
Stubs McKenzie wrote: the other half of the neutering is completed by being seemingly limited to the list of spells on what it can effectively change you, or a rock, into. That is why the game has GM's. You work with them to cover this sort of thing. If you want the rules to cover every possible outcome then your rule books will rival the Encyclopedia Brittanica in size.
A T-Rex mount? The size of it would be rather inconvenient. I would imagine you would need to be armed with a ranged weapon.
Also, I don't think you could get the duration factor high enough to make it permanent.
Well, a monkey familiar that is now permanently a gorilla is still scary.
Gilfalas wrote: Adamantine Dragon wrote: I gotta say, there's a whole bunch of players I'd like to polymorph, if any spell would actually work on them... Here here! Hell I would polymorph myself into a younger, fitter version of me!
Stubs McKenzie wrote: the other half of the neutering is completed by being seemingly limited to the list of spells on what it can effectively change you, or a rock, into. That is why the game has GM's. You work with them to cover this sort of thing. If you want the rules to cover every possible outcome then your rule books will rival the Encyclopedia Brittanica in size. 1) Polymorph doesn't allow you to take on the image of a specific person or creature, just the general creature of that type.
2) That argument works for a lot of things, it does not, however, work for this spell. They changed the polymorph subschool to have specific bonuses and abilities when spells are cast, instead of looking at the stat block of creatures (an increase in word count already), but with this spell specifically, they copy/pasted it for the most part, and seemingly did not consider the ramifications to the spell. It *needs* to be spelled out if you can use it for more than just the spells listed, even if it has a line added to the 'works like the following spells' bit that said "and any future polymorph spell of 6th level or lower." That still doesn't allow you to turn into a giant, which is lame, but does at least allow you turn into an ooze, undead, vermin, etc as those spells get put out in new books. They should also update the list of spells that can be permanency'd with every book, it doesnt take up that much space, but can potentially make a very large difference in play depending on the group.
P.S. As I have said before, I'm still in favor of turning it into a 9th lvl spell that can actually turn anything into anything with the duration listed via the table... It would be a great counterpart to Shapechange, and could include giant form in it's list of spells.
Stubs McKenzie wrote:
1) Polymorph doesn't allow you to take on the image of a specific person or creature, just the general creature of that type.
2) That argument works for a lot of things, it does not, however, work for this spell. They changed the polymorph subschool to have specific bonuses and abilities when spells are cast, instead of looking at the stat block of creatures (an increase in word count already), but with this spell specifically, they copy/pasted it for the most part, and seemingly did not consider the ramifications to the spell. It *needs* to be spelled out if you can use it for more than just the spells listed, even if it has a line added to the 'works like the following spells' bit that said "and any future polymorph spell of 6th level or lower." That still doesn't allow you to turn into a giant, which is lame, but does at least allow you turn into an ooze, undead, vermin, etc as those spells get put out in new books. They should also update the list of spells that can be permanency'd with every book, it doesnt take up that much space, but can potentially make a very large difference in play depending on the group.
P.S. As I have said before, I'm still in favor of turning it into a 9th lvl spell that can actually turn anything into anything with the duration listed via the table... It would be a great counterpart to Shapechange, and could include giant form...
1)While Polymorph doesn't let you take on the form of a specific person, I would say it would work in this situation. I interpret it as the spell making someone look as they would if they were that creature type. Using Polymorph to turn into a younger version of yourself would work because you are specifying younger and same species. The looking-like-yourself part is inherent in the spell.
2)What people often forget is that Heighten Spell increases all the spell level effects of the spell, not just the DC. In this case, heightening the spell to level 9 would let you use 7th level transmutation forms, such as Giant Form 1.
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blackbloodtroll wrote: Well, a monkey familiar that is now permanently a gorilla is still scary. It might be intimidating to commoners but no credible threat would be worried about a gorilla with a wizard's BAB. I would prefer to keep my familiar small enough that it doesn't attract the attention of the people with the pointy objects.
OldManAlexi wrote: Stubs McKenzie wrote:
1) Polymorph doesn't allow you to take on the image of a specific person or creature, just the general creature of that type.
2) That argument works for a lot of things, it does not, however, work for this spell. They changed the polymorph subschool to have specific bonuses and abilities when spells are cast, instead of looking at the stat block of creatures (an increase in word count already), but with this spell specifically, they copy/pasted it for the most part, and seemingly did not consider the ramifications to the spell. It *needs* to be spelled out if you can use it for more than just the spells listed, even if it has a line added to the 'works like the following spells' bit that said "and any future polymorph spell of 6th level or lower." That still doesn't allow you to turn into a giant, which is lame, but does at least allow you turn into an ooze, undead, vermin, etc as those spells get put out in new books. They should also update the list of spells that can be permanency'd with every book, it doesnt take up that much space, but can potentially make a very large difference in play depending on the group.
P.S. As I have said before, I'm still in favor of turning it into a 9th lvl spell that can actually turn anything into anything with the duration listed via the table... It would be a great counterpart to Shapechange, and could include giant form...
1)While Polymorph doesn't let you take on the form of a specific person, I would say it would work in this situation. I interpret it as the spell making someone look as they would if they were that creature type. Using Polymorph to turn into a younger version of yourself would work because you are specifying younger and same species. The looking-like-yourself part is inherent in the spell.
2)What people often forget is that Heighten Spell increases all the spell level effects of the spell, not just the DC. In this case, heightening the spell to level 9 would let you use 7th level transmutation... On both counts, that makes no sense at all.
polymorph subschool excerpt wrote: Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type You may not change into a specific individual, unless you are not a specific individual, you cant turn into yourself, nor can anyone else turn into you. You may turn into a general version of the race/gender you are, but no one is able to recognize the person you changed into as someone they know, but you can get close... "don't i know you from somewhere? You look familiar, but i just can't place your face" sort of a thing.
Heighten spell wrote: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. Nothing in PAO is dependent on spell level as far as variables go... there is no stated "any polymorph spell 6th level and under", and even if there were, it is not an effect dependent on level.
Well, you can make your monkey familiar permanently into maidservant.
That would be scary in it's own way.
Heighten Spell wrote:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
It specifically mentions the ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability. This spell is penetrated by spells of 4th level or higher. I take this to mean that Heightening the spell increases the spell level needed to penetrate the globe. If we work under the impression that, according to the Rules As Intended, Greater Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object are meant to mimic the affects of polymorph spells of 6th level or lower. Then, using Heighten Spell would increase the spell level that could be mimicked. Admittedly, this greatly relies on how the DM interprets the Polymorph spells but it is a possible way to interpret it.
I would suggest that it doesn't change anything mechanically with the spell you heighten for it to bypass lesser globe of invulnerability.. it is the simple fact that it actually becomes a 4th or higher level spell that allows such.
Would you allow a heightened sleep spell to effect more HD just because it was heightened?
sleep spell wrote: A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. That is certainly not the intent of heighten, as it is not a level dependent effect, just an effect. If you do allow it to do so, how many HD does it increase by? 1 per level of the spell? 4 per level? There are a number of issues that come up via that sort of interpretation.
Even if it said what you suggest, it still is not a level dependent effect, it is just the parameters by which the spell functions. Another example:
cloud kill wrote: his spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous. These vapors automatically kill any living creature with 3 or fewer HD (no save). A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
If heighten did what you suggest, and cloud kill was cast as a 9th level spell, it would instantly kill anything of 7 HD (or 15 HD depending on how you add levels, look to previous example) without a save, kill anything of 10 HD (or 30 HD) with a failed save, and only things with 11 HD (or 31) or higher would automatically take con damage.
Sorry, I was reading that wrong. It means heightening the spell lets it penetrate the globe of invulnerability. I thought it meant heightening the globe of invulnerability would make it harder to penetrate. That actually makes a lot more sense. I thought heighten sounded to good (despite how few situations my interpretation would actually matter in).
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