This is just something that occurred to me earlier today, and I'm trying to make sure I'm thinking correctly. I'm certain this has probably come up in a thread in the past, but I'm not entirely sure what key-words I should use to search for it, so I'll re-ask the question. I appologize to anyone who may ahve seen this question for the umptienth time.
Situational Example, (One of multiple I can think of): A musket-Master Gunslinger goes first in initiave, before his target has acted yet. he is close enough to move and then make his attack in the first range increment.
Question is as such, his attack will be a touch-attack. However, his target is flat-footed.... So does that mean the target is also denied his DEX from his touch-AC in this situation?
From how I see it, I'd have to say yes. Which makes having a high initiative as a Gunslinger paramount to achieving practically guaranteed successes.
Yes. Sucks to be the not moving guy when touch attacks are coming.
Assuming he doesn't have uncanny dodge, yes.
Adam Moorhouse 759 wrote: Assuming he doesn't have uncanny dodge, yes. But of course. Uncanny Dodge adds it's own exceedingly specific rules for such a situation, and as such would clearly take precedence.
As for the mutually agreed upon response, well, I thought I was correct. However I hoped otherwise. Because, as it sits, that means a level 1 musket-master (to use my above character situation again), can pop an attack onto an enemy's touch - DEX, up to 100 feet away, at a -2 to hit past the first 50, for the cost of a single grit point... up to 150 feet away (which, in my experience, is longer distance that most encounters ever take place in) at a -4 for two grit points... At that level, all the musket master has to do is hope for a 20, and even the 2 point cost is almost certain to be free, (what with the likely guaranteed confirmation roll, and the x4 crit damage on a D12 easily dropping most enemies faced at that level)... Suddenly the price on ammunition and the no-recovery of missed shots no-longer seems so big of a negative.
(Edited for spelling. <.< beware them grammer nazis)
I don't think it's too big a deal. Situationally, I'm sure many characters have a tactic/ability/attack that lets them clean up.
Yes. Same applies to Rogues with wands of acid splash. That first round of combat is often the last.
Rocky Williams 530 wrote: I don't think it's too big a deal. Situationally, I'm sure many characters have a tactic/ability/attack that lets them clean up. While true, most aren't capable of doing so from a distance that leaves the enemy little chance of coming back from it, even if they survive the first shot. (Touch-AC is usually low enough even including dex, that this little addition seems just plain ludicrous, IMHO).
Side Note @Adam: Rogues with such a wand was another situation I thought of that Touch+Flat-Footed ocurred together. I just singled out the Gunslinger, because that distance seems, well, over-kill.
Any time new material is added to the core rules, there is sure to be power-creep, which is why the groups I have played with generally just stick with core material - it becomes a lot of work for the dm to evaluate how balanced new classes/feats/spells/abilities are.
Kitsune Kune wrote: Adam Moorhouse 759 wrote: Assuming he doesn't have uncanny dodge, yes. But of course. Uncanny Dodge adds it's own exceedingly specific rules for such a situation, and as such would clearly take precedence.
As for the mutually agreed upon response, well, I thought I was correct. However I hoped otherwise. Because, as it sits, that means a level 1 musket-master (to use my above character situation again), can pop an attack onto an enemy's touch - DEX, up to 100 feet away, at a -2 to hit past the first 50, for the cost of a single grit point... up to 150 feet away (which, in my experience, is longer distance that most encounters ever take place in) at a -4 for two grit points... At that level, all the musket master has to do is hope for a 20, and even the 2 point cost is almost certain to be free, (what with the likely guaranteed confirmation roll, and the x4 crit damage on a D12 easily dropping most enemies faced at that level)... Suddenly the price on ammunition and the no-recovery of missed shots no-longer seems so big of a negative.
(Edited for spelling. <.< beware them grammer nazis) This is highly situatonal for one and second outside of a crit is costing 1 or two of your grit points and unless its one guy with low hp all you have done is start the fight. Not to mention your looking at twice the chance to break your gun over getting a crit 3 times as much if your using paper cartridges. Yes for one round and 1 or 2 of a very limted resource(at 1st level at most your looking at 5 grit for the whole day) you hit a guy who has a 10 or less AC. After that you now need 3 or 4 move actions or more of your grit to hit touch ac again.
Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.
In fact looking at it if this guy is unaware your getting grit back even if you crit and kill him with a straight shot. Unaware would be left up to the GM unless its a surprise round then the guy is definatly unaware.
Talonhawke wrote: Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.
In fact looking at it if this guy is unaware your getting grit back even if you crit and kill him with a straight shot. Unaware would be left up to the GM unless its a surprise round then the guy is definatly unaware.
First off, you are correct, that extreme distance was highly situational (as almost any potentially game-breaking abilities tend to be). However, the original posit was simply being with-in a distance to go first and fire upon your target while they are still flat-footed. Which, for a medium creature, means begining the combat within 70ft of your target in order to allow you to hit 10 or less AC at the cost of 0 grit, (70 ft, 30 for a move action to put you within 40 for your standard touch-attack with a fire-arm. As you spent no grit for this, there is nothing you've lost to them being unaware) and such a situation tends to be well within the distances of most encounters. (Side note: with the Extra Grit feat, it is actually possible to have up to 7 grit at level 1. but most would more likely take the 20 in dex than wisdom) Such a situation I can see be extremely easy to come upon, with a highly DEX-based class, and so feels a tad OP for the equivalent of a free ability.
However the point you make in your second post is one I over-looked. It would likely negate most of the reward for the extreme range I mentioned. (I can see extremely few situations in which someone could call said target aware, and the grit cost does become expensive at that point). As such, I concede it is not as potentially game-breaking as I feared.
Exactly now if they know your there and either
A) cant see you or
B)just havent gone
then by all means unload at them from a distance and hope for the crit kill or at least the kill.
You'd lose dex and dodge bonuses. You'd still retain luck, deflection, size, insight, sacred/profane, and a few other random AC bonuses. Most commonly, monk's AC bonus.
Flatfooted touch AC is often 10 or lower (big monsters), but in some cases I've seen it be in the high twenties.
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