Since you used a charm spell on him, and he probably knows it he most likely won't take it well.
Spells that target people are considered to be attacks even if they dont do hp damage.
|
My group runs the charm and suggestion spells as subtle spells, meaning they are hard to detect. As long as she keeps chummy with Bob, Bob will be none the wiser, unless something tips him off. Now if Bob had ranks in Sense Motive and/or Spellcraft, Bob would have an easier chance at realizing what happened. If Bob was a caster, then he'd have a high chance of realizing he'd been had.
While Bob is now no longer under magical influence, as long as she continues to act in a manner agreeable to Bob, Bob should remain friendly to her. In real life, you can be initially indifferent to someone one conversation, then the next one, become fast friends. Happened to me.
If you consider casting charm person to always be an attack, then the victim always gets a +5 on their saving throw, and the spell is pretty close to useless.
Let's assume for argument's sake that he doesn't know it -- still silent spell, cast on him from behind, what have you.
Doug M.
She better be invisible too. RAW still and silenced does not hide spell casting. If if did then SLA's which are also purely mental activities would also get a free pass.
Back to your argument. In that case, if it is pulled off Bob would have no reason to be hostile.
@thewhiteone:Charm person only allows a +5 if the target is currently being threatened or attacked refers to a combat situation or the situation is already hostile.
If casting charm person is considered an attack, then the target is currently being threatened/attacked, thus getting a +5.
+1 by technicality.
Odd spell, charm person.
I have role played it (using a female character) as using a flirtatious gesture (such as a caress) and speaking the verbal components suggestively and playing it off afterward as saying something dirty in another language.
Of course, that's only for certain situations. Unless you have that one smoking hot PC with a high Charisma to pull it all together.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Fact of the matter is, the spell precludes the necessity for Bob to know he's being "attacked." It doesn't say "if the target is aware that it is being threatened or attacked by you or your allies..."
Also, in this case, there is not a RAW answer; it would be handled via DM ruling. My personal vote is: whatever option most favors the caster or target, as determined by popular vote. All future instances will be ruled thusly.
|
I would let it fly, but you could only improve their attitude by one step.
A slightly different example, Bob is unfriendly, and Alice drops charm person on him which puts him at friendly. Alice wines and dines him moving him to helpful. When the spell wears off and he drops back to indifferent (one better than he was previously) and is wondering why he's been so helpful to you all this time. You could then charm and diplomacize him again, each time making him into a little more friendly.
I don't think the RAW aspects of charm person are as cut and dried as wraithstrike suggests, but even if they were I would still run it this way because it's a more thematic way of looking at the spell. The evil enchanter slowly bringing the townspeople under his sway until they all genuinely love him.
If casting charm person is considered an attack, then the target is currently being threatened/attacked, thus getting a +5.
I know what the spell says, but that was not the intent for the spell to nerf itself.
Proof that charm person is an attack:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.
She better be invisible too. RAW still and silenced does not hide spell casting.RAW also says you have no idea what's being cast unless you have Spellcraft.
"Waving your arms, chanting... what are you doing?!?"
"Casting a buff spell on myself. What, don't you trust me?"
"Well, now that you mention it, I seem to be perceiving your words and actions in the most favorable way -- so, yes, I trust you! I hope you're enjoying your buff! Let's go get some ice cream!"
Anyway. The question is not whether Bob would be hostile, but whether he'd be indifferent (back to where he was), or friendly (because diplomacy improved his attitude one step), or helpful (because he was made helpful by the diplomacy, not the spell). Anyone?
Doug M.
You have to have spellcraft to know what the spell is. It does not say you need spellcraft to know someone is casting.
There is also this:
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.
You might not know the intent of the spell, but you know it was not good.
If casting charm person is considered an attack, then the target is currently being threatened/attacked, thus getting a +5.I know what the spell says, but that was not the intent for the spell to nerf itself.
Intent or not, that is the implication of your statement, sirrah.
Intent or not, that is the implication of your statement, sirrah.If casting charm person is considered an attack, then the target is currently being threatened/attacked, thus getting a +5.I know what the spell says, but that was not the intent for the spell to nerf itself.
I was just delivering the rule when I brought it up. Someone else brought up another rule. :)
There is also this:
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.Since the OP assumes that Bob fails his save, I'm not sure what your point is. You don't feel a tingle or anything if the spell succeeds, right?
Doug M.
That post was referring to not knowing a spell was cast due to it being silenced and stilled. I was just offering the rules on the issue. Once a person knows the rules they can decide to enforce them or ignore them, which I often do if they don't work.
Making charm person automatically allow a +5 to the save is one example.
The way I see the whole Charm Person as an attack thing is:
Yes, the spell is an attack, but the text of "If the target is currently being attacked or threatened" refers to what is currently going on when you choose to cast the spell.
>>Is the target being attacked by anything? No? Then you cast this spell and they don't get the bonus to save.<<
--This is an attack, so if (for example) someone else tries to cast another Charm Person spell the result would be
>>Is the target being attacked by anything? Yes, it is being attacked by someone with Charm Person spells, so you would get the +5 bonus.<<
To say that the spell always gives the target a bonus completely regardless of circumstances is nonsensical. If that was the case they wouldn't have bothered including the text.
|
|
The wording on charm person is very subtle, but here's what I think it means.
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The important part is bolded. Currently. When you cast it on someone with whom you are not in combat, that is your first hostile action against him/her; prior to that you are not threatening or attacking him/her. Therefore, the first cast of this spell is made without a +5 bonus on the saving throw. After that, your target is currently being threatened and attacked, and should get a bonus on his/her saves.
The alternative, that every casting of charm person is made with a +5 bonus to saves, is ludicrous, because if the developers had wanted it to be that simple, they would have written it like this:
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). The targeted creature gets a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
Okay, but can anyone give a clear, defensible answer to the original post's question?
Doug M.
No. RAW do not give sufficient information to make a ruling that can be agreed upon unanimously. As I said before, I suggest making a group decision between to favor the caster (option C in the OP), or the target (option A or B, depending on how harsh you want to be on the caster).
It should be treated as independant effects.
So the diplomacy influence lasts for 1d4 hours.
When the spell expires, attitude drops back one level, but the effect from diplomacy stays untill its time is over, just one level lower.
Like different boni that stack, remove one, the other stays.
It should be treated as independant effects.
So the diplomacy influence lasts for 1d4 hours.
When the spell expires, attitude drops back one level, but the effect from diplomacy stays untill its time is over, just one level lower.
Like different boni that stack, remove one, the other stays.
+1
The wording on charm person is very subtle, but here's what I think it means.
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.The important part is bolded. Currently. When you cast it on someone with whom you are not in combat, that is your first hostile action against him/her; prior to that you are not threatening or attacking him/her. Therefore, the first cast of this spell is made without a +5 bonus on the saving throw. After that, your target is currently being threatened and attacked, and should get a bonus on his/her saves.
The alternative, that every casting of charm person is made with a +5 bonus to saves, is ludicrous, because if the developers had wanted it to be that simple, they would have written it like this:
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly). The targeted creature gets a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
This is pretty much exactly what I was getting at :)
Alice meets Bob. Bob's attitude towards Alice is Indifferent.
Alice casts Charm Person on Bob. This causes Bob to become Friendly for one hour/level. Let us say that Alice is first level, so he's Friendly for one hour.
As soon as Bob is Friendly, Alice uses Diplomacy on him. The Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of an Indifferent creature is 15 + creature's Cha mod, but for a Friendly creature it's only 10 + cha mod. So Alice succeeds. Bob's attitude improves to Helpful. Under the RAW this lasts for 1d4 hours; let's say Alice rolls a 4, so she gets four
An hour later, the Charm Person spell wears off. Bob's attitude now...
A) ...drops back to Indifferent, negating the Diplomacy check.
B) ...drops back one level, from Helpful to Friendly, but remains Friendly for three hours.
C) ...remains Helpful for three more hours.
D) ...other.Doug M.
I believe RAW, his attitude remains Helpful. Likewise, while charmed, creatures perceive your words and actions in the most favorable way possible. While the effect that causes them to perceive your actions favorably ends, the results of that effect doesn't.
If someone was to charm an enemy, bringing them from hostile to friendly, they now have the opportunity to relate to that person without any sort of negative bias. In essence, it could be described as the best Ice-Breaker ever. Their attitude towards you has improved since then, and without further stimulus, there is no reason for them to fall back to hostile (their attitude may drop a bit, but they probably shouldn't revert to absolute hostility).
Another way to look at it, is Charm Person creates a temporary means to facilitate interaction otherwise not possible. A drow elf might want to kill you without question. Charming him or her would end that desire to kill you, at least temporarily. At which point, you could build more lasting, real bonds, with that creature. Or you might use them as a slave, and they'll wake up, realize you were screwing with them, and get upset.
On a side note, telling them to not resist your magic is an excellent way to keep them charmed, as they can willingly fail their save against subsequent charm person spells. Telling them that they are charmed, would be a fair way to facilitate trust.
Enchanter: "You were trying to kill me, but I charmed you, so we could stop fighting."
Charmed Drow: "I...I'm sorry. I don't want to think about that. I don't want to kill you now, or ever."
Enchanter: "Honestly, I'd rather we not fight either. I can keep charming you, if you will let me."
Charmed Drow: "Of course! If I would hurt you, then I don't want to not be under your spell."
Enchanter: "Alright. In the meantime, let's see to your wounds, and you can tell me about yourself..."
Given time, the enchanter may actually befriend the charmed drow, assuming circumstances and Diplomacy checks were on the enchanter's side. You'd still remember the feeling you had after being charmed, so those experiences would help shape the person's opinion afterwords.
The evil path to this might be using Charm Person to force the target to do something they would hate, or just to use them, and them realizing it. For example, a magical assassin might use charm and dominate spells to have loved ones kill their targets.
Assassin: "Your husband...kill him."
Charmed Commoner: "B-but, I-I love him. I c-can't do that..."
Assassin: *rolls an opposed Charisma check and crushes the Commoner's* "You must kill him."
Charmed Commoner: "I...*tears*...I know you're right...*sobs*..." *pulls weapon (like a meat cleaver from the kitchen), walks into their bedroom, and coup de graces her husband while he sleeps*
The masked assassin leaves her there. She eventually comes out of the charm, and has to live with the agony of what he forced her to do. There's a pretty solid chance that without further charms, she will hate the assassin, and likely herself, until the day she dies (which may be pretty soon if her grief overtakes her).