Designing Dwarves vs Giants

[skullboy]

I'm running my players through an all-dwarf campaign, i.e., they're a party of 5 dwarven characters all from the same Barrow. The adventures so far have been loosely-coupled around protecting the interests of the Barrow and the dwarven king.

The group is all level 5 now and I'm working them towards playing a conversion of G1-G3 Against the Giants that I'm working on. I'm planning on taking them there once they reach 8th level.

Play last weekend got me thinking. In their current adventure they chewed through a band of ogres easily, primarily due to their dwarven training ability which gives them a +4 dodge bonus vs. giants. The ogres struggled to inflict any damage on them.

When I take them through Against the Giants, should I increase the encounter difficulty to compensate for the dwarven training? Would a CR 1 increase be sufficient? Or CR 2 or more? I considered putting some type of effect in place to negate that training, but that seems too heavy-handed to me.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Evil Lincoln]

Don't negate. The AC bonus is working as intended, it is making dwarves better at fighting giants, on average.

I would increase the CR or add class levels to the enemies until I hit a sweet spot. Basically, the game is telling you it takes tougher giants to challenge dwarves. Embrace that, and send in the tougher giants. It will be more satisfying for everyone than trying to negate an iconic ability.

EDIT: Also, consider mixing in some non-giant pets with the giants, just to call attention to the awesomeness of the AC bonus. Bears for stone giants, young white dragons for frost giants, go nuts.

[Aelryinth]

You made up a party of giant-killers, are facing them with giants, and now you want to punish them for it? :) Or you just want to challenge them with tougher key foes?

That dodge bonus can be a kicker, sure. But giants with class levels should have no problem overcoming it. You can either use the Advanced template, or give them all two levels of Barbarian. The Rage +BAB advance cancels out the dodge bonus...BUT they are also doing 2-6 more damage per blow, AND they have at least 20 more hit points.

That would make it a MUCH tougher fight, and they would earn more xp at the same time they are being challenged.

===Aelryinth

[Wiggz]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Don't negate. The AC bonus is working as intended, it is making dwarves better at fighting giants, on average.

I would increase the CR or add class levels to the enemies until I hit a sweet spot. Basically, the game is telling you it takes tougher giants to challenge dwarves. Embrace that, and send in the tougher giants. It will be more satisfying for everyone than trying to negate an iconic ability.

EDIT: Also, consider mixing in some non-giant pets with the giants, just to call attention to the awesomeness of the AC bonus. Bears for stone giants, young white dragons for frost giants, go nuts.

Agreed. Also remember non-giant slaves and retainers.

Personally, I absolutely love themed parties, whether its a band of rogues, dwarves from the same hometown or just a group with a good backstory - case in point, our last group included:

A female human paladin (young aristocrat from a family now destroyed)
A human fighter/ranger (former soldier turned gameskeeper & master of the hunt for the dispossed family, now sworn protector of the girl)
A half-elven theurge (her tutor and advisor)
A human thief (a waif they picked up, a young girl for whom we used the racial stats for halflings)

I tend to write my own campaigns and themed parties are infinitely easier to design adventures for than figuring out why a drow summoner, a human cleric, a half-ogre barbarian and a halfling paladin all just happen to be friends and compatriots.

Keep us updated on how it goes.

[Chobemaster]

Please include someone named Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter, somewhere in the adventure.

[skullboy]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it is the idea to balance the coolness of the dwarven ability with giving the PCs a challenging encounter.

So where a stone giant might normally be a good level 8 challenge (4,800 XP / CR 8), should I instead treat him as a 3,200 XP / CR 7 monster and add levels / pets to bring the encounter back to a CR 8? The design question is then how much do I discount the giant's CR to account for the dwarven ability?

I'm liking the non-giant pet/friend idea. Could get the PCs thinking "Ha, this giant can't touch me. But on the other hand his bear is a real pain."

[Evil Lincoln]

I wouldn't lower the CR, that robs the players of some XP that they get from being the right party for this battle.

I'd rather raise the CR, and try to include a little more variety in the opposing force's makeup, and the terrain, etc. to compensate.

Full disclosure, I don't use XP. I level by GM fiat, so I'm not the best person for advice preventing and XP glut... My instinct would be to make fewer, more difficult encounters.

[Wiggz]

skullboy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it is the idea to balance the coolness of the dwarven ability with giving the PCs a challenging encounter.

So where a stone giant might normally be a good level 8 challenge (4,800 XP / CR 8), should I instead treat him as a 3,200 XP / CR 7 monster and add levels / pets to bring the encounter back to a CR 8? The design question is then how much do I discount the giant's CR to account for the dwarven ability?

I'm liking the non-giant pet/friend idea. Could get the PCs thinking "Ha, this giant can't touch me. But on the other hand his bear is a real pain."

Heh - have fights take place in water (or snow) four feet deep.

[Mergy]

Giants know from experience that fighting dwarves is a challenge. I think they would come prepared with countermeasures like shaman who would buff them, or perhaps focusing on one elusive dwarf at a time.

Evil thought:

Giants with bard levels. A stone giant with 5 levels of bard only goes up to CR 10, and his gianty singing will give all his giant buddies a +2 bonus to attacks and damage. So my understanding of the bestiary goes at least; correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aelryinth]

reducing the xp is punishing the players for making anti-giant characters that you are sending against them.

The BEST way to handle this is to send normal giants after them, let them feel awesome for a bit, and then send the barb/2's above after them...bigger encounter, more xp, and without all their buffs, they are in trouble! Only the dwarves could do this, should be what they are thinking.

===Aelryinth

[skullboy]

Aelryinth wrote:

The BEST way to handle this is to send normal giants after them, let them feel awesome for a bit, and then send the barb/2's above after them...bigger encounter, more xp, and without all their buffs, they are in trouble! Only the dwarves could do this, should be what they are thinking.

I like this. Thanks for the help.