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When a synthesist is in its hybrid form, is it possible to target or sunder their worn gear? Or does it's eidolon shell make that impossible?
Unless the item's melds into the new form it is still good for targeting. There would have to be specific ruling that "hides" the gear so to speak.
Unless the item's melds into the new form it is still good for targeting. There would have to be specific ruling that "hides" the gear so to speak.
But if the synthesist is INSIDE his eidolon, and he gets his eidolon's natural armor bonuses (among other things), doesn't that mean it presents itself as a solid barrier? How does one penetrate the "hide" in order to target the gear therein? Don't they have total cover?
You can't even hurt the synthesist with physical attacks until you crack the shell (i.e., the temporary hit points). Is the same not true of his gear?
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Not to me. Common sense would say yes, but rules-wise I don't see it. As for RAI I don't know.
The rules also say they are one creature so if one of them is wearing the items it could also be said that both of them are wearing it, and therefore the items are subject to attack.
The eidolon is translucent which is to say that you can see the summoner just not very clearly. Also consider that the eidolon is tangible. Sundering his gear I would think would be a definite no. I'm not sure how you'd go about getting to it short of cutting apart the eidolon.
Edit: At best you'd be talking trying to sunder someone's shirt under their chainmail. Can you see it? Yeah kinda. Do you think you can hit just the shirt? Hell no.
You can't even hurt the synthesist with physical attacks until you crack the shell (i.e., the temporary hit points).
Not true. For example, a creature that did Wisdom damage with an attack would hurt the Synthesist without "cracking the shell".
Nothing in the rules claims the eidolon is a physically solid barrier.
Now, the real question is if two Synthesists got married and did Married People Stuff (tm) while wearing their eidolon outfits...
I think this one is FAQ-worthy.
Considering, for example, that any armor you are wearing does not provide protection while merged, I would think that it would be sensible if said armor could not be targeted.
I would think other objects on your person would be along the same lines.
The eidolon is translucent which is to say that you can see the summoner just not very clearly. Also consider that the eidolon is tangible. Sundering his gear I would think would be a definite no. I'm not sure how you'd go about getting to it short of cutting apart the eidolon.
Edit: At best you'd be talking trying to sunder someone's shirt under their chainmail. Can you see it? Yeah kinda. Do you think you can hit just the shirt? Hell no.
So now worn items and carried gear have concealment in addition to total cover? Great.
Considering, for example, that any armor you are wearing does not provide protection while merged, I would think that it would be sensible if said armor could not be targeted.
I would think other objects on your person would be along the same lines.
Where does it say the armor does not provide protection. Now if that is found I will agree that the items can not be targeted.
@RD. I see no concealment anywhere in the description. You can try to abstraction it, but the rules don't support it.
"Armor Bonus
The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."
Is that what you were looking for wraithstrike, or something else mechanically?
I was looking for something that says the armor was blocked(no physical contact with an opponent) because of the synthesis itself since that is how I read Interzone's post.
A) Eidelon cannot wear armor.
B) Summoner is inside the eidelon if he's a synthesis summoner.
If A & B, then Either C or D.
C) The armor stays on the summoner, and is inside the body of the eidelon, since he can't wear it. Therefore it is not a valid target for sunder.
D) The armor falls off the summoner, and is not inside the body of the eidelon, since he can't wear it. Therefore it is a valid target for sunder.
Now, you can pick C or D, however, FAQ says it can't be D.
Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) keep any armor bonuses or other benefits from his armor when he is fused with his eidolon?No. The eidolon is, in effect, the synthesist's armor, and any armor the synthesist wears does not function while the eidolon is present. Fortunately, this doesn't mean the synthesist has to remove his armor when wearing the eidolon, and when the eidolon is banished/dismissed/killed, the summoner's worn armor immediately begins functioning again.
Since it can't be D, we are left with C (supported by the FAQ) that the armor is on the summoner, not the eidelon, and is therefore not a valid target for sunder.
I guess the magic items are protected then. Good job mdt.
I guess the magic items are protected then. Good job mdt.
Actually,
I would say only the Armor is protected.If the Summoner has a magic item that the Eidelon can wear, it should simply resize to fit the eidelon, since the eidelon can benefit from it. Same as the Summoner's weapons transfer to the eidelon's arms for weapon based attacks. No one would argue the +1 great axe the summoner has can't be sundered when the Eidelon is wielding it. If the fusion is getting the benefit of the amulet of natural armor, then it should be around the eidelon's neck, which is where it needs to be to work.
The fusion isn't like a wildeshape, where they fuse in and it states they continue to work. The only thing that's been said to fuse in and stop working is armor, so that's all I'd grant immunity to.
That is what the point of the armor question was regarding the Interzone's statement.
RAW it gets no protection.
This is really more about magic items in general, not just armor.
This is really more about magic items in general, not just armor.
My opinion on the matter: If the eidolon has the slot open and is able to use, the eidolon should have the magic item equipped. Any items that could not be would be 'under' it and safe from targetting.
Example: Boots or rings on a serpentine base form. (no legs or hands)
This is really more about magic items in general, not just armor.
Yes. I'm asking about gear in general, not just armor.
Also, I don't really believe it was the designers' intent that the summoner remove all of his gear prior to every summoning and re-equip it afterwards.
I agree with the last post, but I also don't think they intended to give all of the magic items a blank check against being target without saying so.
There really is no rule as to what happens. All we know for a fact is that they two become one creature. Looking at it as a GM or player, since I sometimes do get to play, I would not want it to have such protections with a rule in place that says so.
PS:Targeting items does not come up that much, but the issue does need to be addressed.
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As I said, my interpretation, do with it what you will.
When you merge, if the item is valid to be used and usable by the eidelon form, then the item 'transfers' out to the eidelon. It does not need to be removed and re-equipped, it's part of the merging. If the eidelon cannot use the item (for example, armor) then it's subsumed in the eidelon, and is not a valid target for sunder attempts.
This follows from the FAQ (which says the armor, since it can't be used, is subsumed and kept by the summoner) and the fact eidelons and summoners share slots, and that one can't use the other's slots. So if the merged form is using a slotted item, then it has to be on the eidelon, not the summoner. Since there's no rules for being able to use subsumed equipment by the summoner.
Where does it say the armor does not provide protection. Now if that is found I will agree that the items can not be targeted.@RD. I see no concealment anywhere in the description. You can try to abstraction it, but the rules don't support it.
"Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner, the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature."
The eidolon is translucent. Translucent is not transparent. Allowing light, but not detailed images to pass through. From this I derive that you cannot clearly see the summoner. Pin pointing his: necklace, shoes, hat should be a fun feat to the extent that you can make a precise strike should be fun assuming you would be allowed to do so in the first place which you would not be.
I was not stating that the items or summoner had concealment or trying to infer it to be so.
"Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature."
Because of this I would safely say that you will not have to worry about the summoner having concealment. You can hit him you just cannot hit just his personal body as by rule they are treated as one critter.
What I was referring to when I stated in my comparison to hitting an undershirt is that it would be the equivalent of the ultimate called shot which as far as I know is not supported by pathfinder. The equivalent of trying to hit someone's uvula without hitting anything else which would logically interrupt the attack.
Now when I was referring to protection I was referring to an item that only the summoner was using, rather something that does not have a shared function. As Mdt said if the item is valid to be used by the eidolon the logically it would also be considered as worn by the eidolon both mechanically and functionally unless you want to get into strange house rules where if you surgically insert a belt of magic strength it applies to you.
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To add to this synthesist issue:
1)Would the Gills evolution basically act as waterbreathing spell with an "Awake" duration for the summoner? Same with the Keen scent and Dark Vision even if the summoner is of a race without the racial attribute?
2)Since the Eidolon in this form does not have any feats per se, the synthesist must utilize only his/her own feat selection tree to boost; ie evolution pool.
I am ruling yes until otherwise nerfed or convincing arguement otherwise.