Tetori Monk / Druid ...the wrestling bear

[thegreenteagamer]

My latest PC went splat to a hill giant's greatclub, but not before his giant template advanced zombie dire bear showed me that grappling huge animals are AWESOME!

I decided to bring back an old PC who left the party a while back, a dwarven Druid, and to say he spent the last few months in a monestary learning the way of the monk.

I have skimmed the boards. It appears Druid 4 with shaping focus monk x gives huge animals. Druid 8 monk x gives huge elementals.

Which is better? More monkish wrestling? Being a big old earth elemental?

Is feral combat training worth two feat investments to raise NA damage since I can't flurry?

Should I Boon Companion an animal if I go Druid 8 or just say screw it and go plant domain for wooden fist?

If I go growth subdomain can I use the domain power to go gargantuan wildshape?

If I only do Druid 4 is natural spell REALLY worth it for 2nd level spells?

Finally...how does one RP a dwarven Druid monk?

Help please!

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

There are a lot of martial arts styles that are based on traditional elements like stone, wind, etc. It's very Tai Chi.

Like this, where Jet Li masters the water style (may want to jump to the middle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKG_wZkzZgo

You could live without natural spell, in my opinion. However, it IS handy. Some of your low-level spells, like produce flame and faerie fire, give you ways to deal with ranged attackers and invisibility, which you might enjoy.

Yes, growth subdomain works, by the rules. I'd be careful not to go nova on the first day, however, or your DM may decide that kung-fu bears are banned.

Personally, I like the huge animals with the monks' wis to AC tacked on.
But you're the one that has to have fun with the character.

Go ahead and stat out some of the shapes you can change into. Then decide if you want to bother ALSO tracking an animal companion. If not, then take the spells.

[otter cake]

I've been waiting to play this...
Saurian Shaman 2 Tetori X
Shaping focus

Suddenly, as a huge dinosaur for 8 hours a day, you are the best possible grappler ever...and if someone casts enlarge person on you you are gargantuan.

[Alwaysafk]

otter cake wrote:

I've been waiting to play this...

Saurian Shaman 2 Tetori X
Shaping focus

Suddenly, as a huge dinosaur for 8 hours a day, you are the best possible grappler ever...and if someone casts enlarge person on you you are gargantuan.

Enlarge person doesn't stack with wild shape, sadly.

I think this is a fantastic concept, grapple like a boss. You would be Kuma from Tekken, and wrecking like a boss. I would say go 4 levels of druid and get your huge bear awesomeness, then use feral combat training to get flurry in wildshape. I think that'd work.

[thegreenteagamer]

Alwaysafk wrote:

otter cake wrote:

I've been waiting to play this...

Saurian Shaman 2 Tetori X
Shaping focus

Suddenly, as a huge dinosaur for 8 hours a day, you are the best possible grappler ever...and if someone casts enlarge person on you you are gargantuan.

Enlarge person doesn't stack with wild shape, sadly.

I think this is a fantastic concept, grapple like a boss. You would be Kuma from Tekken, and wrecking like a boss. I would say go 4 levels of druid and get your huge bear awesomeness, then use feral combat training to get flurry in wildshape. I think that'd work.

Tetori don't get flurry. I was thinking feral training to get monk damage boosts to natural weapons if it works that way.

By the way its more like hulk Hogan bear than Kung Fu panda

[Feral]

Tetori lends itself better to Kung Fu but whatever makes you happy.

I did something similar with a brutal pugilist barbarian/druid with a a focus on grappling. The biggest problem was, at higher levels it was more effective for me to just claw/claw/bite than waste actions grapple/pinning.

[Archaeik]

Quote:

Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

FCT doesn't give you the monks damage progression

It let's you use Stunning Fist(or equivalent) with natural attacks
It also let's you gain the benefits of style feats that specifically use/rely on unarmed strikes(most commonly Dragon Style/Ferocity)

Re: high levels
The gain you look for from a grapple build is a free grab/constrict on as many attacks as possible. (and tetori get this at 15)
If it happens to be useful to maintain a grapple/pin for whatever reason, then all the better.

I've been knocking around some builds augmented by synthesist levels, but I'm not sure you gain more than you lose atm.
(specifically, an eidolon's rake says you get the extra attacks on every successful grapple check; vs the UMR entry that says you have to start the round grappling and/or pounce)
I like this druid angle though.

[thegreenteagamer]

Archaeik wrote:

FCT doesn't give you the monks damage progression

It let's you use Stunning Fist(or equivalent) with natural attacks
It also let's you gain the benefits of style feats that specifically use/rely on unarmed strikes(most commonly Dragon Style/Ferocity)
.

I don't know about that. To me monk fighting IS an augmentation to unarmed strikes. Wouldn't it then carry over?

Would you say MoMS is better then?

I'm at 6th level currently so I'm trying to work out which feats/build to have thus far.

So far I am thinking druid4/tetori2, but I am unsure on my three feats. If I CAN augment damage its easily WF claws/FCT/imp.Nat.attack claws. If not...I dunno.

Also, gear...

I have 2 grand over standard wealth by level per GM. I can be assumed yo have crafted anything I have caster level for (GM thinks feats for that are stupid so any caster can craft)

I know monks robe, AoMF, stat boosters and the like are priority, but I can't afford all. We're about to enter an area with no towns, so I need to be prepared.

[Archaeik]

edit: dunno why I was ignoring neutral in the other direction

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/monkNatWepsFeralCombatTrainingINA#4

Basically, natural weapons are still natural weapons. FCT allows you to treat them LIKE unarmed strikes, but their type does not change.
The monks improved damage is specifically for unarmed strikes.
If your DM feels differently, more power to you. (As INA can't apply to unarmed strikes per the devs)
However, you may still be able to make an unarmed strike as a bear if it happens to be useful.

Feats, this is a tougher question
Does the bear form automatically give you grab? If not, you'll need FCT to make the tetori's grab work with your natural attacks.
Even if you plan on taking final embrace, you could only get it very late(19).

I'm pretty convinced INA is a trap(unless you can cheese it somehow between multiple increases from size/spells/extra dice from specials like FEM or PKO, or said monk progression)

I'll assume you already have power attack in there.

Dragon Style does tend to work out fairly well for natural attack builds, but you would need FCT. I wouldn't worry about MoMS unless you have another style(or 2) that you want to use at the same time.
Also, the charge through anything portion isn't limited by unarmed strikes, so it's very good on it's own.

Ki Throw and the like are cool if you want the suplex flavor. (but they require a bigger investment into Imp Trip or BR to get more than Ki Throw) Otherwise, you're probably looking at standard things like toughness/dodge/combat reflexes depending on how you like to play.

Gear, so you're getting to "purchase" anything you have sufficient caster level to craft for half price? (so CL4)
AMF is a done deal.
Monks robe isn't that great unless you're getting the damage boost, I'd scrap it, for now.
I'd grab a wis and str as +2 boosts
Pearls of Power would be good.
I'd spring for some wands of CLW (and anything else you think you might want - especially if you get the crafting discount)
If you're worried about defenses, most of the +1 items should easily be within budget.

[thegreenteagamer]

Sorry I took so long to reply. I REALLY appreciate the input.

Archaeik wrote:

I'm pretty convinced INA is a trap(unless you can cheese it somehow between multiple increases from size/spells/extra dice from specials like FEM or PKO, or said monk progression)

Well, does the combo of huge size from wild shape, growth domain, and eventually powerful wild shape count? I think I'll have claws and a bite that make a greatsword look like a toothpick by then.

Not familiar with FEM or PKO though. My abbreviation recognition is crappy.

Archaeik wrote:

Dragon Style does tend to work out fairly well for natural attack builds, but you would need FCT. I wouldn't worry about MoMS unless you have another style(or 2) that you want to use at the same time.
Also, the charge through anything portion isn't limited by unarmed strikes, so it's very good on it's own.

My search fu may suck a lot, but I did find a fairly long argument over whether or not a druid can still unarmed attack in addition to natural attacks on the boards here. Someone threw down page and book that explained "HA, suck it, anyone can do unarmed attacks". That being said, I worked Dragon Style in, and figure I'll use it for charges, and use UAs for my first hit.

It'd be something like headbutt, claw, claw, bite, rake on a pounce with a dire tiger form.

Ooh...maybe it IS worth working in FCS so I can have a form with pounce AND grab (via Tetori). Pounce, headbutt (grab attempt), claw (grab attempt), claw (grab attempt), bite, rake... ..next round pin as a move action (when I have greater grapple), stunning fist claws, proceed to rip apart. I'll be like a giant pissed off cat!

As for gear, I threw down your ideas, mostly. Skipped the wands, as we have an alchemist, paladin, and myself who can heal, and my old character had three wands of various healing types on him which the others looted off his corpse.

I went with balanced and magical knack traits.

My build so far...
1 - Druid: Power Attack
2 - Druid
3 - Druid: Dragon Style
4 - Druid
5 - Tetori Monk: Shaping Focus, Imp Grapple
6 - T Monk: Stunning pin [This is where I'm starting the game. Almost to 7th though]
7 - T Monk: Natural Spell
8 - T Monk
9 - Druid: Weapon Focus claw
10 - Druid
11 - Druid: Feral Combat Training
12 - Druid
13 - T Monk: Powerful Wild Shape
Tetori Monk the rest of the way. Maybe work INA in if it makes the difference between one die size and another. I dunno. Few campaigns last that long. I doubt this one will. If it does, I'll be effectively COLOSSAL for a few rounds a day (Huge elemental from level 8 druid with shaping focus, up to gargantuan from growth domain a few rounds a day, and effectively colossal from powerful wild shape), so really, I'll have hit my goal being a grappling machine. The GM said even without the ability I can probably still swallow a handful of goblins at a time if I'm that big.

The standard dwarf racial abilities seemed good for me. I dunno. Should I take any alternatives?

[Archaeik]

I'll get back to this when I can.

Final Embrace Master
double constrict dice

Pinning KnockOut, tetori gets at 10 I think
double nonlethal damage during a pin

Oh, and I'm not trying to say you need these, just that they synergize well.

INA
I really need to read over how things work/stack again
but I'd say those bonuses are getting really close to being worthwhile
Does the growth domain let you enlarge while shaped?(even if not, it's still good for grapples)

per the tiger, they get a better die already right? so huge is 2d6
Garg + INA would be 4d6, pretty good for a feat. If you can (regularly) boost that further it would be a lock.

[Archaeik]

Okay, looked over some stuff now.

Quote:

Well, does the combo of huge size from wild shape, growth domain, and eventually powerful wild shape count? I think I'll have claws and a bite that make a greatsword look like a toothpick by then.

so let's address these individually

-huge, helps
-growth, I was surprised, this doesn't change your type, bring the lulz
Post 1
Post 2

-powerful, doesn't mention weapons
Powerful Shape
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).

Still good.

And you probably know about this spell.
Strong Jaw

Spoiler:

So neat, you can make a wand of this, or if you're really ambitious, it would be 112k(market) for a continuous item.
(Okay, back up - DRUIDS pay that cost. 4*7(CL) = 28. Rangers get it as a 3rd and have the same caster level, even though they need to be level 10. 3*7 = 21.)
So market price for a wand is 21000(druid) 15750(ranger).
Permanent item, 112k(druid) 84k(ranger).
But ranger crafters will be more rare, so w/e. If you make it yourself, you'll use the druid price, and half is still cheaper than full price ranger.

But let's get into INA a little deeper.
The way I look at it is a damage increase.
There's already a damage increase, Weapon Spec for +2.
INA increase a range, so look at average damage.
1d4->1d6 2.5->3.5 +1
1d6->1d8 3.5->4.5 +1
1d8->2d6 4.5->7.0 +2.5
2d6->2d8 7.0->9.0 +2

1d8/2d6 seems to be about the range you want to take it to match Weapon Spec.
After that, you start getting multiple dice increases, which can be really nice.

If you didn't notice yet, Dragon Style requires IUS, so you'll need a level of monk sometime before you grab it.

And I'm not gonna lie, the big draw of a Dragon Style/FCT combo is picking up Dragon Ferocity. You'll already have Stunning Fist, so no big deal the grab it at a reasonable juncture. (the usefulness of ferocity really depends on your Str)

Otherwise, I'd suggest ignoring FCT. (However WF is solid, even if possible to live without).

Been looking at a few things trying to really justify FCT.
PinKO may need it for the nonlethal stipulation.(think it does)

But tetori grab fails in a couple places.
You do need FCT if you want to use their Grab ability with a natural weapon. BUT, it always costs ki...

Quote:

At 8th level, a tetori gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes, and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool.

The benefit you gain here, is that you can spend the 2 to use grab on larger creatures.

Loss 2 - Wild Shape ALREADY gives you grab in many forms. Granted, you need to be level 6 for Beast Shape 2 equivalency, but you've already got that.

It's getting late, and I'm starting to forget what I was gonna say, but..

something about Tetori, and the needing level 8 for grab anyway
but then Pinning KO at 10 being pretty reasonable since it doubles the result

and then to remind/inform you about Rapid Grappler
(when do you hit bab 9? level 12, so take it when you find room - I'd say the benefits of RG(extra grapple) vs Powerful shape(+2CMB if huge->garg/+4 if garg->colo) are about even, but obviously it's more fun to be treated as colossal sooner)

and maybe some passing mention of constrict... (tetori 15)
the issue being that you never get it from Wild Shape as you don't get beast shape 4 equiv. (but you COULD cast beast shape 4 -- SpL 6th for 11 druid levels -- or a scroll)
It's not a huge deal, but with constrict you can get double damage on every hit(with a grab)

so it's hit->dmg->grab->constrict(dmg)->(free action, release grapple)
which is an attack roll and a CMB roll(if the attack hit) for those attacks, both deal damage.

I understand feat space is really limited, so it's a lot of tough choices.
Good luck with this, it does sound interesting.