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This build beats out all ther others due to having a resting AC of 60 (without needing to resort to activated abilities like Combat Expertise or fighting defensively). He remains useful to the party at all levels and cannot be easily ignored by the enemy. What's more, he keeps the cheese factor low and follows the rules as written. A strong, basic tank.
I could easily make the AC higher (66+ with a defending weapon, ioun stones, and other options), but I figured there wasn't much point as nothing in the Bestiary can hit AC 60 short of rolling a natural 20. I figured shooting for the stars when it wasn't necessary would be CHEESY.
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Basically, I'm trying to find out what would be the highest AC you would expect any player to get if they just where not going to outright break their character, so nothing build dependent and core rules.
Synthesist can push 49 ac, naked, with default physical stats, without multiclassing or using feats.
** spoiler omitted **
For a little cheese: add two levels of paladin and 1 level of oracle (lore). Grants +3ac +7 fort, +14 ref, +7 will. (assuming base charisma of 24).
That should put you at a 52ac, before gear. And I've not even touched monk.
A synthesist with a defensive build won't deal much damage, but not much is going to damage him.
Yeah, that's why I don't allow Summoners in my game whatsoever. +33 from Natural Armor alone? Before magic? Not happening. Rocks fall, all summoners die.
Master Arminas
You think those are bad-- I always ban Adepts from my game. Ridiculously OP, especially when they get to level 4. Same goes for Experts.
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This build beats out all ther others due to having a resting AC of 60 (without needing to resort to activated abilities like Combat Expertise or fighting defensively). He remains useful to the party at all levels and cannot be easily ignored by the enemy. What's more, he keeps the cheese factor low and follows the rules as written. A strong, basic tank.
I could easily make the AC higher (66+ with a defending weapon, ioun stones, and other options), but I figured there wasn't much point as nothing in the Bestiary can hit AC 60 short of rolling a natural 20. I figured shooting for the stars when it wasn't necessary would be CHEESY.
The sythesist/paladin/oracle(lore) hits the 60 ac mark with just bracers of armor. While only a 15 BAB, it also has a base strength of 27
That leaves all other slots plus 6 to 10(1/2 elf) evolution points and all feats for other purposes. Since arms are mandatory and further evolutions would be invested in utility abilities, I personally would go with the two weapon fighting chain and use manufactured weapons as my primary, leaving bite + tail as secondary.
Ok, let's see what I can do here just with core equipment first (no special-made items or character stats, but including stat boost items:
Base: 10
Armor: +5 mithral full plate (+14AC, +3 Max Dex)
Shield: +5 mithral tower shield (+9 AC, +4 Max Dex)
Deflection: +5 ring of protection
Amulet of Nat AC: +5 Nat AC
Belt of Dexterity +6: +3 Dex AC
Ring of Invisibility: 50% miss chance (@ will essentially means always active)
Total: 36 AC, 50% miss chance
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Now, let's add Fighter Armor Training and a good Dex:
Dexterity 20: +5 Dex AC
Armor Training: +5 max Dex
Total: 41 AC, 50% miss chance
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Substitute Fighter for Monk with good Dex and Wis:
Dexterity 20: +5 AC
Wisdom 20: +5 AC
Monk AC: +5 AC
Trade armor for Bracers of Armor: -9 AC
Trade shield for Ring of Force Shield: -5 AC
Trade Ring of Invisibility for Cloak of Displacement (minor): -30% miss chance
Total: 47 AC, 20% miss chance
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Add in spells for a little cheeze:
Haste: +1 Haste AC
Undead Anatomy IV: +8 Dex, +3 Nat AC (+8 AC, plus size AC, or +4 AC from Dex alone)
Total: +9 or +5 if you don't include the extra Nat AC
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And top things off with party buff class abilities:
Sacred Bonus: +3 (Divine Defender Paladin Archetype, Sacred Defense ability)
Morale: +1 (Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin Archetype, Power of Faith ability)
Fortification: 50% (Power of Faith ability, see above)
Total: +4 AC, +50% fortification
And these two Paladin Archetypes can be taken together, so that is just one character providing these bonuses to the entire party.
I know that this doesn't have lvl cutoffs, but these are hardly optimized builds to boot. Our group has ad a 15th lvl palidin in the group with a 40 AC without heavy armor or a shield, and a 15th lvl Oracle who, with some buffs and a buckler, easily beat that without depending on actual armor at all (Oracle of Bones, Bone Armor revelation).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This build beats out all ther others due to having a resting AC of 60 (without needing to resort to activated abilities like Combat Expertise or fighting defensively). He remains useful to the party at all levels and cannot be easily ignored by the enemy. What's more, he keeps the cheese factor low and follows the rules as written. A strong, basic tank.
I could easily make the AC higher (66+ with a defending weapon, ioun stones, and other options), but I figured there wasn't much point as nothing in the Bestiary can hit AC 60 short of rolling a natural 20. I figured shooting for the stars when it wasn't necessary would be CHEESY.
The sythesist/paladin/oracle(lore) hits the 60 ac mark with just bracers of armor. While only a 15 BAB, it also has a base strength of 27
That leaves all other slots plus 6 to 10(1/2 elf) evolution points and all feats for other purposes. Since arms are mandatory and further evolutions would be invested in utility abilities, I personally would go with the two weapon fighting chain and use manufactured weapons as my primary, leaving bite + tail as secondary.
Except my guy doesn't become crippled when hit by things like dismissal or banish. With +5,000gp, he can be given comfort armor and never has to remove his plate. You, on the other hand, lose a crap ton of AC and other defenses whenever you are attacked at night.
In short, your guy has some serious vulnerability issues that mine does not.
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This build beats out all ther others due to having a resting AC of 60 (without needing to resort to activated abilities like Combat Expertise or fighting defensively). He remains useful to the party at all levels and cannot be easily ignored by the enemy. What's more, he keeps the cheese factor low and follows the rules as written. A strong, basic tank.
I could easily make the AC higher (66+ with a defending weapon, ioun stones, and other options), but I figured there wasn't much point as nothing in the Bestiary can hit AC 60 short of rolling a natural 20. I figured shooting for the stars when it wasn't necessary would be CHEESY.
The sythesist/paladin/oracle(lore) hits the 60 ac mark with just bracers of armor. While only a 15 BAB, it also has a base strength of 27
That leaves all other slots plus 6 to 10(1/2 elf) evolution points and all feats for other purposes. Since arms are mandatory and further evolutions would be invested in utility abilities, I personally would go with the two weapon fighting chain and use manufactured weapons as my primary, leaving bite + tail as secondary.
Except my guy doesn't become crippled when hit by things like dismissal or banish. With +5,000gp, he can be given comfort armor and never has to remove his plate. You, on the other hand, lose a crap ton of AC and other defenses whenever you are attacked at night.
In short, your guy has some serious vulnerability issues that mine does not.
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In short, your guy has some serious vulnerability issues that mine does not.
Yes, the sythesist has some definate vulnerabilities that other classes do not have. Those vulnerabilities are part of what balances the class.
That being said, The above build can push Fort: +30, Ref: +39, Will: +40.
That is using a +6 belt, +6 headband a +5 cloak of resistance.
With iron will / improved iron will I get a +42 on will with a reroll.
I still have a 30 AC just from Cha and bracers.
The paladin / oracle levels were not taken for AC, they were taken to address the weaknesses of synthesist.
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The duelist prestige class and kensai archetype stack. I just remember someone posting a ridiculous build working off of that fact that that you basically add your int twice to your ac and have feats and buffing spells to get your ac to insane levels. The build might of had a couple other dips but I'm not quite sure. Even so just going defensive buffs kensai duelist will get you enough ac to basically dodge anything. Also your touch ac will be awesome.
The more I look at this the more I think you're right. For one thing, the feats would actually be one with "per duelist level" and one with "per kensai level". But I though it was still questionable at that point, so I looked for other precedents. And if you poke around, you see it's fairly common for abilities of the same name in different classes to stack-- take Improved Uncanny Dodge for instance. I think there's a definite precedent in Pathfinder for rewarding characters who take overlapping classes with complimentary abilities.
In short, your guy has some serious vulnerability issues that mine does not.Yes, the sythesist has some definate vulnerabilities that other classes do not have. Those vulnerabilities are part of what balances the class.
That being said, The above build can push Fort: +30, Ref: +39, Will: +40.
That is using a +6 belt, +6 headband a +5 cloak of resistance.
With iron will / improved iron will I get a +42 on will with a reroll.
I still have a 30 AC just from Cha and bracers.
The paladin / oracle levels were not taken for AC, they were taken to address the weaknesses of synthesist.
Ah. Should have caught that as I have a similar build, minus the synthesist levels.
EDIT: Where you used synthesist, I used sorcerer.
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Here is hoping that the writer still make Society Mod’s for non’ Meta gamer’s
I for one don’t Read the book cover to cover trying to MAX him the best I can.
That is what I got my Son and his buddies for.
It takes all the fun out of it for me. But if I have to start doing that just to be able to survive.
Not sure if it will be fun playing anymore.
I have not seen this tread too much in my area. Does this happen a lot?
That Meta Gamming?
I see it with my son and some of his friends but hey there 12
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Here is hoping that the writer still make Society Mod’s for non’ Meta gamer’s
I for one don’t Read the book cover to cover trying to MAX him the best I can.
That is what I got my Son and his buddies for.
It takes all the fun out of it for me. But if I have to start doing that just to be able to survive.
Not sure if it will be fun playing anymore.I have not seen this tread too much in my area. Does this happen a lot?
That Meta Gamming?
I see it with my son and some of his friends but hey there 12
No, the average gamer out there is not necessarily going to max their characters like this. It's just that these messageboards (in particular this board, and even more particularly this thread) are the ideal place for people to swap ideas on especially good class combos, etc. And most of these (or any) type of maxed out optimized character is going to have a significant weakness/vulnerability somewhere, and if you have a decent GM, he/she will still make scenarios fun and interesting by exploiting those (to a reasonable degree). Though like I said, not everyone is a min/max-er by any means. I've run into very little of that in my Society groups.
So fear not!|
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I have not seen this tread too much in my area. Does this happen a lot?That Meta Gamming?
The types of builds I post about bear little resemblance to what I actually play.
The synthesist I am preparing for PFS would be laughed off the forums.
I'm not finished, but this is what I am working on for actual play in PFS:
Name: Israfel Dawnborn
Gender: Male
Class: Summoner (synthesist)
Level: 1
Alignment Lawful Good
Race: Human
Init +2 Perception +6
AC 16 Touch 12 Flatfooted 14 (+2 Dex +4 Natural)
Hp 11 (8 base +2 con +1 fav) / 17 (10 unfused +6 eidolon +1 con)
Fort +1 (0+1)Refl +2 (0+2) Will +3 (2+1)
CMD 16
Base speed 30 Actual speed 30
BAB 1 CMB 4
Melee attacks
. . Katana(2h) +4 (1d8 +4/18-20/x2)
. . Wakizashi +4 (1d6 +3/18-20/x2)
. . Claws x2 +4 (1d4 +3/20/x2)
Ranged attacks
. . Acid Splash +3(touch) (1d3/20/x2/30')
Humanoid:
Str 16 Dex 14 (12+2) Con 13
Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 17
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14
Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 17
Feats
. Weapon Proficiency: Katana
. Weapon Proficiency: Wakizashi
Traits
. Magical Knack (+2 to caster level, not to exceed total level)
. Tomb Raider (+1 to perception / dungoneering, perception as class skill)
Knowledge, Dungoneering(1) +6 (1 +3 class, +1 int, +1 trait)
Perception(1) +6 (1 +3 class, +1 wis, +1 trait)
Spellcraft(1) +6 (1 +3 class +2 int)
Profession(1) +5 (1 +3 class +1 wis)
UMD(1) +7 (1 +3 class, +3 cha)
Combat Gear
Katana, Wakizashi
Other Gear
Explorer's Outfit, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch
Total Weight
PP GP SP CP
Racial Features
. Skilled (racial, +1 skill / level)
Class Features
. Cantrips
. Fused Eidolon
. Summon Monster (I) (7/day, not while fused)
Eidolon Features
. Darkvision
. Share Spells
Evolutions (biped)
. Limbs(arms)
. Limbs(legs)
. Claws
. Improved Natural Armor (+2 NA)
. Ability Increase(dex +2)
Favoured Class Options
. Hit points (+1)
Cantrips
Acid Splash (14)
Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Read Magic
Level 1 1 + 1
Mage Armor
Rejuvinate Eidolon, Lesser
Posted this build for an upcoming PVP duel, which is Synthesist 12/Paladin 2 (for the saves bonus), also 25 point buy. If we cut HD down to 10 and replace 2 level dip in Paladin for 1 in Monk, we get:
Base Summoner Scores (Gnome):
Str 5
Dex 9
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 21
for Monk 1/Synthesist 9 Small Serpent Form:
Str 11
Dex 21+Ability Increase 1 + Evolutions 4=26
Con 11+Evolutions 2=13
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 21
Evolutions: Limbs (arms), Ability Increase x3, Nat Armor x2, DR 5/Chaotic (3)=13
Gear: Ring of Protection +3 (18k)
Bracers of Armor +4 (16k)
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (18k)
Which adds up to 52k. The rest can be spent on a magic bow if we're going Zen Archer, or some sort of finessey Monk Weapon if melee. Really, we could go both, since Weapon Finesse seems like a must with this build.
So AC: 10 + 8 Dex + 9 Nat Armor + Dodge 1 + Wisdom 3 + Armor 4 + Deflection 3 + size 1= 39, 26 touch at level 10. That's using 1 feat, which is a bonus for monks.
Really, with this build, there's little sense in having Charisma that high without the Paladin's Divine Grace, so Dumping charisma some to bring Wisdom up to 20 by level 10 is in order. That's an extra 2 to AC right there; we might as well trade in the Bracers for a +4 headband to bring that touch AC up an extra 2. So with a +7 Wisdom mod, that brings this guy up to a 43 AC, 30 touch. And we could still cast Mage Armor. Or Displacement. Or Protection from Evil/Chaos/Arrows. Or Grease to try and get out of a grapple. Or DimDoor. Or buy a belt of dexterity to bring attacks and AC up.
But now we're probably getting cheesy...
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Here is hoping that the writer still make Society Mod’s for non’ Meta gamer’s
I for one don’t Read the book cover to cover trying to MAX him the best I can.
That is what I got my Son and his buddies for.
It takes all the fun out of it for me. But if I have to start doing that just to be able to survive.
Not sure if it will be fun playing anymore.I have not seen this tread too much in my area. Does this happen a lot?
That Meta Gamming?
I see it with my son and some of his friends but hey there 12
The other factor here is that a lot of these maxed out builds are for level 20, which you simply don't see that often, even outside PFS. And they are also making use of maxed out magical equipment (rings, belts, headbands, ioun stones, armor, etc), which again is really expensive and would be rare for a single character to have a full kit of. The only place you are going (or should) find level 20 maxed out characters with every single piece of maxed out magical gear they can equip would be in a campaign designed around such character builds where you're fighting things like Choral the Conqueror.