I love the concept of the teamwork feats. I hate their execution. I didn't like them in Star Wars Saga when I saw them, and I can't say I'm a fan of them in Pathfinder either.
My problem with them is that generally the feats require other people to also purchase the same feat to be of any use. With the feat economy generally as tight as it is, it makes this sort of proposition fairly unusable.
Instead, I would rather see the game opt for treating the "group" as an entity. Just like a player, or even a familiar, the "group" can increase in strength. One of the advantages for this increase in strength would be the gaining of the "Group Feats" which, basically, are the team work feats we have already. The only difference is that once the group grabs the feat, everyone counts as having it.
I have to admit that I like the 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 team benefits (which work somewhat like you describe) way, way more than PFRPG's teamwork feats.
I could see something where the group gains a group feat every 4 levels or so.
I could see something where the group gains a group feat every 4 levels or so.
Also similar to how the 3.5 teamwork benefits function!
There's a number of ways to deal with how to advance a "group".
Average party level
Highest party member
"Group" xp
Sacrificed XP
etc.
I do think the party system should be fully modular to the rest of PF. Meaning that If i have a character from My game, where we use the system, and take him to a friends where they don't, then beyond noting that I don't have the "team feats" there are no changes or adjustments needed.
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I agree with the sentiment, although perhaps my suggested execution is handled a little easier. In particular , the problem with forcing the same feat on every party member is that it does not resolve the choice of that feat, nor does it deal with more mutable parties as occur in PFS play.
I would propose that at the same time as a character's advance in level earns an increase in an ability adjustment, the character gets ONE free feat that can ONLY be spent on a "teamwork" feat. Interns of frequency and sheer number of teamwork feats, this seems to hit the right balance to my eyes.
The feat taken is a matter of player/NPC choice. While this may or may not prove to be a benefit, in practice, most players will co-ordinate to a high degree. If they don't -- then they don't.
Consider this bonus feat to be akin to.a fighter "combat bonus feat" only slot. Whatever the case, I think this approach should work reasonably well.
Simple, easy to adjudicate and solves the perceived problem.
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I should add that one of the interesting design aspects of teamwork feats is how those feats are used during encounters by the foes of the party. Teamwork feats are especially appropriate to some organizations and factions in Golarion. imagine the Aspis Consortium, various Orders of the Hell Knights, Magical academies, etc can all be given team feats which seem to fit the theme of the order-- and which can add to tactical complexity on the battlefield. Anything which increases maneuvering on the tabletop should be encouraged and teamwork feats are a great way to do this during encounters without turning into a one trick pony or bogging EVERY ENCOUNTER down with the same tactic.
I agree with the sentiment, although perhaps my suggested execution is handled a little easier. In particular , the problem with forcing the same feat on every party member is that it does not resolve the choice of that feat, nor does it deal with more mutable parties as occur in PFS play.
I would propose that at the same time as a character's advance in level earns an increase in an ability adjustment, the character gets ONE free feat that can ONLY be spent on a "teamwork" feat. Interns of frequency and sheer number of teamwork feats, this seems to hit the right balance to my eyes.
The feat taken is a matter of player/NPC choice. While this may or may not prove to be a benefit, in practice, most players will co-ordinate to a high degree. If they don't -- then they don't.
Consider this bonus feat to be akin to.a fighter "combat bonus feat" only slot. Whatever the case, I think this approach should work reasonably well.
Simple, easy to adjudicate and solves the perceived problem.
While that is true, a group system could open up more opportunities than simple teamwork feat accrual.
(as for exactly what, that would be for full designers to come up with)
I think you're on the right track when it comes to rewarding parties group feats.
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New book: Ultimate Parties!
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New book: Ultimate Parties!
Keg stands not included. :)
I agree with the sentiment, although perhaps my suggested execution is handled a little easier. In particular , the problem with forcing the same feat on every party member is that it does not resolve the choice of that feat, nor does it deal with more mutable parties as occur in PFS play.
I would propose that at the same time as a character's advance in level earns an increase in an ability adjustment, the character gets ONE free feat that can ONLY be spent on a "teamwork" feat. Interns of frequency and sheer number of teamwork feats, this seems to hit the right balance to my eyes.
The feat taken is a matter of player/NPC choice. While this may or may not prove to be a benefit, in practice, most players will co-ordinate to a high degree. If they don't -- then they don't.
Consider this bonus feat to be akin to.a fighter "combat bonus feat" only slot. Whatever the case, I think this approach should work reasonably well.
Simple, easy to adjudicate and solves the perceived problem.
I actually like that better. It allows people within the group to coordinate with each other.
Example: In your standard party, the fighter and rogue may want the +4 flanking feat, while the wizard and cleric may want something that allows the cleric to better protect the wizard.
The mistake you may be making about Teamwork Feats is thinking that they are for player-characters. They're clearly great for NPCs. (And for players, because they make mooks more interesting)
That said, other cooperation mechanics — with players in mind — would be a great addition!
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.
agreed.
Plus this sort of system would fall apart in something like Organized Play, where you don't always have the same group of people in every session. Would you have to pick a new Group feat per session? But then again, that would be the same problem with Teamwork Feats as they are now, with maybe the exception of people who can give their Teamwork Feats to allies like the Cavalier can.
harley that's the thing organized play isn't really organized play.
Plus this sort of system would fall apart in something like Organized Play, where you don't always have the same group of people in every session. Would you have to pick a new Group feat per session? But then again, that would be the same problem with Teamwork Feats as they are now, with maybe the exception of people who can give their Teamwork Feats to allies like the Cavalier can.
As a group system would be an optional (and modular) type of system, all you would need to do would be to "remove" the system.
This may sound vaguely familiar to some of you...
For every 3 sessions a character has been played he adds +1 to the groups "Teamwork Pool." Any character that has contributed at least 1 point to the pool is considered a member of the team and may draw points from the pool but may not draw more than he has contributed.
For every 10 points in the pool a team member may perform any one teamwork feat once per session. This does not reduce the number of points in the pool.
A team member may add a bonus to any d20 roll he makes, or that affects his character, equal to the number of points he "withdraws" from the pool. Reducing a teamwork pool in this way reduces the number of points in the pool available to other team members and may reduce the number of teamwork feats a team may perform.
Teamwork pools refill at the beginning of every session.
This may sound vaguely familiar to some of you...
For every 3 sessions a character has been played he adds +1 to the groups "Teamwork Pool." Any character that has contributed at least 1 point to the pool is considered a member of the team and may draw points from the pool but may not draw more than he has contributed.
For every 10 points in the pool a team member may perform any one teamwork feat once per session. This does not reduce the number of points in the pool.
A team member may add a bonus to any d20 roll he makes, or that affects his character, equal to the number of points he "withdraws" from the pool. Reducing a teamwork pool in this way reduces the number of points in the pool available to other team members and may reduce the number of teamwork feats a team may perform.
Teamwork pools refill at the beginning of every session.
** spoiler omitted **
I think using a hardset number is a problem (i.e. 10) Go instead with some multiple of your game group size (or average group size).
Otherwise your system means its harder for 2 people to learn to work together than it is for 5 people.
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.
Actually, I was thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this.
Every 5 levels, a character can take a teamwork.
Every 3 levels that a character has been with their current group of companions, they get a teamwork feat.
So at level 9, the guy who has been with the group from level 1 has 3 teamwork feats. The guy who swaps characters ever other level has 1.
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.Actually, I was thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this.
Every 5 levels, a character can take a teamwork.
Every 3 levels that a character has been with their current group of companions, they get a teamwork feat.So at level 9, the guy who has been with the group from level 1 has 3 teamwork feats. The guy who swaps characters ever other level has 1.
See though, I don't like teamwork feats because while they are a good thought, its like trying to use a butter knife on a screw. There's some workability there, but in the end its simply the wrong tool to use.
Teamwork feats are an attempt to put the ability to work as a team as something an individual picks up.
So, lets say a mage and a thief are working together. After 3 levels, your thief picks up Feint Partner, your mage picks up Shielded Caster.
This 3 levels of working together gives them a new individual feat, and they ended up afterwords not able to work together any better than they were after they first met.
This is why I keep going back to saying that there needs to be some way of treating the GROUP as an entity, not just the players. Yes its a bit more abstract, but I think its a better tool for the job than teamwork feats as we have them.
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.Actually, I was thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this.
Every 5 levels, a character can take a teamwork.
Every 3 levels that a character has been with their current group of companions, they get a teamwork feat.So at level 9, the guy who has been with the group from level 1 has 3 teamwork feats. The guy who swaps characters ever other level has 1.
See though, I don't like teamwork feats because while they are a good thought, its like trying to use a butter knife on a screw. There's some workability there, but in the end its simply the wrong tool to use.
Teamwork feats are an attempt to put the ability to work as a team as something an individual picks up.
So, lets say a mage and a thief are working together. After 3 levels, your thief picks up Feint Partner, your mage picks up Shielded Caster.
This 3 levels of working together gives them a new individual feat, and they ended up afterwords not able to work together any better than they were after they first met.
This is why I keep going back to saying that there needs to be some way of treating the GROUP as an entity, not just the players. Yes its a bit more abstract, but I think its a better tool for the job than teamwork feats as we have them.
The problem with forcing the feats as a group option is that what if the rogue and fighter want coordinated charge while the cleric and wizard want allied spellcaster?
If the players choose to waste their teamwork feat, that is their issue. If they want to intentionally gimp themselves, you can't stop them. As a player I really want the option to choose for myself and not be forced into what the rest of the group chose/voted for.
I like the idea of rewarding PCs that stick together over an extended duration. Some players like to swap PCs every other session and having a built-in reward system for longer-term PCs who gain benefits by knowing each others strengths and abilities seems like a nice way to handle that.Actually, I was thinking about this over the weekend, and I came up with this.
Every 5 levels, a character can take a teamwork.
Every 3 levels that a character has been with their current group of companions, they get a teamwork feat.So at level 9, the guy who has been with the group from level 1 has 3 teamwork feats. The guy who swaps characters ever other level has 1.
See though, I don't like teamwork feats because while they are a good thought, its like trying to use a butter knife on a screw. There's some workability there, but in the end its simply the wrong tool to use.
Teamwork feats are an attempt to put the ability to work as a team as something an individual picks up.
So, lets say a mage and a thief are working together. After 3 levels, your thief picks up Feint Partner, your mage picks up Shielded Caster.
This 3 levels of working together gives them a new individual feat, and they ended up afterwords not able to work together any better than they were after they first met.
This is why I keep going back to saying that there needs to be some way of treating the GROUP as an entity, not just the players. Yes its a bit more abstract, but I think its a better tool for the job than teamwork feats as we have them.
The problem with forcing the feats as a group option is that what if the rogue and fighter want coordinated charge while the cleric and wizard want allied spellcaster?
If the players choose to waste their teamwork feat, that is their issue. If they want to intentionally gimp themselves, you can't stop them. As a player I really want the option to choose for myself and not be forced...
However, under the group system, regardless of the choice it will be usable for the team. Yes, you can't get everything all at once, but in the end, whatever feat they do choose is usable. Under the other system, people all get what they want, and then nobody can use it.
I would argue that if we were to keep the current teamwork feat system the feats themselves need to change from gaining a bonus if someone else is with you that has the feat, to "This is a feat that grants bonuses to team-mates."
I believe teamwork feats were originally a cavalier only ability that was split off as feats to accommodate Inquisitors. I have nothing to back that up, but it makes some sense. They are generally better than most feats, due to the high cost of them.
I believe teamwork feats were originally a cavalier only ability that was split off as feats to accommodate Inquisitors. I have nothing to back that up, but it makes some sense. They are generally better than most feats, due to the high cost of them.
The idea of them isn't new. Star Wars Saga had them, and they worked in much the same way. Though, thankfully, the feat wasn't completely useless by itself. They were generally along the lines of "+2 to this skill, and an additional +3 for every person who has this skill within X distance from you" While not as good solo as the skill focus feat in Saga (+5) if the entire team took it, it became an awsome ability.