Hi all,
I'm new to pathfinder and i have some questions a about TWF, Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Master.
1- Assuming my character got Twf and Improved Twf, all secondary attack made with Twf are part of Full round action? if so i can't shield slam if not doing full round action.
2- Will the Shield Master negate the -5 malus of improved twf?
if so i can make 2 shield bash without any panality? (primary weapon still have -2 or -4 panality)
3- Shield Slam, they say i can move with the free bull rush if i have a remaining 5' step or move action. so you can 5' step while full attack.
do this mean i can make my 1st bull rush (shield bash), push the target back. (assuming it's pushed 5' away), take my 5' step and make my 2nd bull rush (shield slam)?
If my 1st shield slam push the target back more than 5', i'm out of luck i will not be able to do my 2nd shield slam unless i do not use the free bull rush for the first attack and use it for the second one?
Thanks and sorry for my bad english.
1.All TWF attacks are full round actions. Yes you can shield slam. A shield slam is normally an off-hand attack.
2. The shield master feat negates the TWF penalties with any shield attacks. The main weapon still takes the normal penalties.
3.If your bull rush attempt is successful and you can push the enemy back you may take a 5-foot step, and continue the attack. You are only allowed one 5-foot step around barring certain feats that may exist.
If you push the target more than 5 feet away you are out of luck. You do not have to bull rush though.
If the shield is your off hand weapon, which it usually is, then you cannot do it unless doing a full attack action to two weapon fight.
the -5 penalty from ITWF is NOT the TWF penalty. Anyone can TWF and if they choose to, they take penalties. ITWF gives an additional attack, the penalty is part of the attack not two weapon fighting. You would still have the -5 penalty, but not the -2 or -4 penalty from twf.
The attack, bull rush, 5 foot step, attack, bull rush plan not only works, but is also really cool sounding.
Ok i see... so with shield master, i first shield slam will be at my full BAB and the second one at -5... i tought i could do both shield attack at my full BAB. -5 kind of hurt.
Can i decide at my first shield bash bull rush to push the target only 5' away? or it's the dice roll result that will decide?
Now i have to decide if i will raise my dex to 17 to take ITWF and make 2 shield slam or just keep one and put STR to 18 instead of 16.
Maculosa wrote: Ok i see... so with shield master, i first shield slam will be at my full BAB and the second one at -5... i tought i could do both shield attack at my full BAB. -5 kind of hurt.
Can i decide at my first shield bash bull rush to push the target only 5' away? or it's the dice roll result that will decide?
Now i have to decide if i will raise my dex to 17 to take ITWF and make 2 shield slam or just keep one and put STR to 18 instead of 16.
The -5 is so that your off hand attacks mirror your main hand. Your base attack should be the same for both hands (assuming equal weapon bonuses), otherwise you'd actually be better with your offhand than your mainhand.
That said, a lot people not playing rogues only take TWF and not ITWF.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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This is interesting...
(only the relevant bits)
Shield Master
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
The fact that it's called out as a penalty seems that RAW supports gaining the additional bashes from ITWF/GTWF in conjunction with Shield Master to use your normal(full) BAB.
RAI, this is a blatant misinterpretation.
I looked under the combat rules(briefly) for TWF/full round attacks rules, but didn't see the mentions of BAB-5(-10/-15) or the limitation to 4 (MH)attacks in a round.
I'll look some more, but unless BAB is actually adjusted, the ITWF/GTWF penalties are just that, being designed to mimic normal BAB iterative progression.
The monk flurry of blows has the TWF progression also. That is a good base example to use.
Again, flurry is designed to mimic normal progression. A monk does not have the TWF feats for the purposes of qualifying for other feats that use them as a prereq.
The issue being that normally there is no way to avoid this penalty. And given that flurry explicitly claims to use the TWF model/feats, you should be able to build a Fighter/Sohei that flurries with his shield and takes no penalties(even if only on the "OH" attacks), hilarious.
Again, also, this is surely not RAI...
Oh, and just to add something for the OP.
Once you add in Bashing Finish, you're also getting additional FREE bashes/bull rushes whenever you crit.
AND the wording of the feat is such that these free attacks also occur on any crits from your shield bash. (whether that's RAI, I'm not sure)
However, you need to be careful moving with your targets. If you made your bash as an OH attack using TWF, you no longer have a move action to spend; similarly, if you crit with bashing finish and spend a move action to follow the target, you no longer have that move action to spend to continue your full attack with TWF for more bashes(or more MH iteratives).
Furthermore, I read shield slam as requiring the BR check on any successful shield bash, so once you pick up the feat, you can't stop yourself from pushing opponents back even if you don't want to.
(ie, it's poorly worded)
edit:
this means that optimal positioning for your bashes will always have your opponent up against a wall/obstacle so he falls prone instead of moving
Yes Bashing finish is a good feat. will take it.
I test the feat progression in HeroLab Demo, and with those feats the program make the first shield bash at full bab and the second one at -5.
(the only attack that get -5 is the 2nd shield attack)
the main hand still suffer the -2 or -4 Twf panality.
The main hand is not a shield and therefore still suffers the appropriate penalty (-2 if you're using a light shield, -4 if you're using a heavy shield).
if you're willing to be unreasonable in order to optimize, you can technically fight with 2 shields... their shield bonuses don't stack but with "+X Large Shield of Bashing" times two and shield master you would have no TWF penalties, and the same weapon focus/specialization feats and weapon training will apply to both 'weapons' leaving more feats free for bull rush and/or crit feats.
again, this is ridiculous and mildly abusive (and really RAW, not RAI)- but if you're looking to optimize and don't mind getting laughed at, go for it (lol).
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