My favorite spells as a general rule, are buffs. Its probably the reason that bard is my favorite class. It is hard to go wrong with a buff.
If you have a 7th level spell slot open and you want to do something offensive, what better spell are you going to cast?Summon Monster VII, Blade Barrier (6th level), Cold Ice Strike (6th level Swift action!), Harm (6th level, which deals more damage on a successful save and touch attacks are easy to land anyway), hell, Flame Strike (5th level) does more damage if you can catch three enemies in it.
Sorry, Destruction is a terrible spell. Disintegrate would be, as well, if it weren't for its ability to annihilate almost any object/wall/whatever from existence.
Well obviously if there are multiple targets an area spell is going to do better than a single target spell, that goes without saying.
I somehow doubt that there is anything you could summon with a summon VII spell that is going to do as much damage in one round...Cold ice strike does less damage on a successful save, and less damage on a failed save, same with flame strike
Blade Barrier damage can be completely negated with a save (unless you can force something to try to get through the wall, super conditional)
and Harm: I think I already went over how this is definitely worse.
(If we are talking about a CR appropriate monster here, and you are a dedicated caster, do you REALLY want to be getting in its melee range, and most likely triggering at least 1 AoO?)
Point is: If you want to do damage to something NOW, GUARANTEED, to disregard Destruction as 'weak' is ridiculous
I somehow doubt that there is anything you could summon with a summon VII spell that is going to do as much damage in one round...
A Roc, from Summon Monster VII, with the proper template to Smite the enemy you're facing at the moment, can deal 98 damage if it connects with all its attacks (which is very likely), and then, on top of that, it gets a free grapple check with a +29 CMB.
And it can do this every round for 13 rounds, instead of just dealing 130 (on a failed save) or ~35 (on a successful save) just once.
There are also other effects worth considering (i.e. Control). Vrocks have a couple useful SLAs, their weird spores, and a 30' radius Stun (with a pretty decent Save DC). Bebeliths rip through armor and shields (literally) and cause a nasty Con damage Rot with their bite.
Dire Crocodiles have brutal grappling (slightly more brutal than the Roc), and pretty much all of the summons control lots of space.
Cold ice strike does less damage on a successful save, and less damage on a failed save
But it's a Swift action. In other words, you can still do something else. Like make a full attack or cast a control spell or Summon something.
same with flame strike
Well, I did say if you hit multiple enemies.
Blade Barrier damage can be completely negated with a save (unless you can force something to try to get through the wall, super conditional)
Blade Barrier controls space and offers the choice of taking damage or not moving how they want to. It's also not as hard as you seem to think to make people pass through it.
and Harm: I think I already went over how this is definitely worse.
(If we are talking about a CR appropriate monster here, and you are a dedicated caster, do you REALLY want to be getting in its melee range, and most likely triggering at least 1 AoO?)
I really don't understand why, as a Cleric/Oracle, you're a "dedicated caster." You get Full Armor proficiencies, shields, and a 3/4 BAB. How are you unable to get into melee? Did you have a 10 point buy or something and could only afford your casting stat?
Point is: If you want to do damage to something NOW, GUARANTEED, to disregard Destruction as 'weak' is ridiculous
And I'm saying, that if you want to do damage to something NOW, GUARANTEED, with a spell as a Cleric/Oracle who can cast spells of at least 7th level, I think your priorities need to be reconsidered.
Clearly, this is a playstyle issue. I am having a lot of trouble imagining a Cleric/Oracle not buffed to the nines and wading into melee (and putting the Fighter to shame). I'm having even more trouble picturing a Cleric/Oracle that would prioritize dealing damage to a single target once so much that they would use up a precious, precious prepared/known slot on a sub-par damage spell, "just in case."
Witch (the other full caster)
0th - Detect magic (sick of it yet?), Read magic, Guidance(maybe).
1st - Ill omen, Command
2nd - Pernicious Poison, Vomit swarm, Web, False life, *Symbol of mirroring*.
3rd - Bestow curse (do not let your familiar deliver touch attacks), fly, stinking cloud, strangling hair.
4th - Black tentacles, Confusion, Enervation, Fleshworm infestation, Threefold aspect.
5th - Baleful Polymorph, Feeblemind, Magic Jar, Mind fog, Teleport.
6th - Raise dead (maybe), Get more 4th and 5th level spells.
7th - Heal, Plane shift, Waves of exhaustion.
8th - Irresistible dance, Maze, Horrid wilting.
9th - Astral projection, Heroic Invocation (Maybe).
Probably my second favorite spell list, especially since you can pick up haste from the agility patron (and some other less awesome patron offers it as well).
*The only symbol spell that I like. Put it in a book, make it permanent, open the book with party nearby before going into next part of dungeon, congrats everybody has mirror image. Oh wait did I mention that any slain images come back on that characters turn, seriously this is broken.
*The only symbol spell that I like. Put it in a book, make it permanent, open the book with party nearby before going into next part of dungeon, congrats everybody has mirror image. Oh wait did I mention that any slain images come back on that characters turn, seriously this is broken.
The Symbol of Mirroring works like Symbol of Death, which has the following problem:
"To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally."
So, if you want the Symbol to keep working, it needs to be prominent and visible--in other words, the enemies will benefit from it, too.
I know you're probably thinking, "The images last for as long as a creature remains within 60 feet of the symbol, and for 1 round/level thereafter," means that you just need to be near the symbol, which can be in a closed book hidden in a pack or something, but that just refers to how close to the prominently displayed symbol you need to be.
Covering or hiding the rune renders it ineffective--as in, totally--as in, you're looking at images for nobody or for everyone, including enemies.
It's still a lousy spell, unless your entire party can see through illusions.
Precombat spell -- it doesn't state that it creates images for those that enter the area after the symbol is triggered, and only creatures that have an image that is destroyed get a new symbol each round.
Precombat spell -- it doesn't state that it creates images for those that enter the area after the symbol is triggered, and only creatures that have an image that is destroyed get a new symbol each round.
A Symbol of Mirroring works as a Symbol of Death, which contains the line:
"A creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered."
So, uh, yes, enemies would get the images, too.
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death's triggering conditions cannot be changed.
As Abraham said this is a precombat spell, and you can bet just looking at that rune isn't good enough. Touching seems to be the go to option here.
You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature's name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don't qualify.
Oh yeah, all good stuff, good luck benefiting from my spell enemies. Plus have fun burning actions to figure out which spell it is. Like I said before I normally dislike symbol spells, this is the exception.
Oh yeah, all good stuff, good luck benefiting from my spell enemies. Plus have fun burning actions to figure out which spell it is. Like I said before I normally dislike symbol spells, this is the exception.
Oh, awesome. That really is probably the only good Symbol spell, then.
I somehow doubt that there is anything you could summon with a summon VII spell that is going to do as much damage in one round...A Roc, from Summon Monster VII, with the proper template to Smite the enemy you're facing at the moment, can deal 98 damage if it connects with all its attacks (which is very likely), and then, on top of that, it gets a free grapple check with a +29 CMB.
Ahahahahaha...
We are talking about a CR-appropriate target here.A roc will have a roughly 50% chance to hit on any of its given attacks... even if it has smite available (and not all targets are evil)
I'd hardly call that 'very likely'.
But whatever, if you don't like the spell don't use it... I am just saying I like and I will continue to use it :P
Every spell has its place. Destruction may be more effective against a lower CR opponent than the caster, which is fine. Not all battles take place at APL=CR. Summoning spells are also useful. Every spell needs to be cast at the right place and time.
I also ask that we avoid fighter/caster disparity. I don't want this thread to devolve. I'm trying to learn more about which spells others like and why. I would like the thread to please remain focused.
I think it's great that there are some people arguing for and against certain spells. It's helping me learn the nuances without actually having to play the various classes.
I never got into the witch. That's an interesting list though.
I come from an older school of gaming where blasting was considered normal. I can still build an effective caster, which I enjoy. I just want to see other interesting options as well.
Major and Minor creation make my list personally.
If your going to play a vanilla witch, your a debuffer first and foremost. I made that list with the debuffer mindset and only threw in a few Battlefield control and utility spells. That said take a look at this absolutely horrifying combo.
Round 1: Evil eye and Cackle the biggest non poison immune guy. Also have your familiar use Ill omen on him.
Round 2: Misfortune the same guy and spam the ill omen until it works.
Round 3: Pernicious Poison (-8 to saves against poison, and the posions last twice as long. Oh yea it is harder to treat as well.)
Round 4: Do whatever you want involving poison this includes but is not limited to
-Vomit swarm
-Stinking cloud
-Fleshworm Infestation
I played a witch in a party with a poison happy alchemist, We were best buds.
I don't like playing debuffers. I would rather be buffing my party or throwing some beat down on the enemy.
Minor/Major Creation are excellent options. If someone can't figure out how to use them, maybe their imagination isn't ready for a role playing game.
Zero-level Spells:
Detect Poison: Hey! I’m paranoid, ok? OK? It’s a cantrip, so I damn sure check every meal and every drink beforehand.
Mage Hand: Who doesn’t love the little cute baby telekinesis?
Mending: Adventuring causes more rips and tears in robes than anything! Mending keeps me looking nice and neat without shelling out tons of money on a tailor.
Prestidigitation: Everyone needs this spell. I clean myself, I chill (or heat) my drink or soup, I perform minor magics. It is THE universal spell.
First-level Spells:
Comprehend Languages: I am smart, but not even I can speak or read EVERYTHING.
Feather Fall: I only have to point out it is an immediate action to cast. And for those who don’t like this spell because once cast you only fall 60’ a round? Wait until you are 60’ from the ground to immediately cast it! Come on, wizards! Use that head of yours as something other than a rack for that Headband of Vast Intellect.
Magic Missile: It is a staple for a reason.
Unseen Servant: You think I sweep and mop? And dust? And wash dishes? HAH!
Second-level Spells:
Invisibility: The duration is great. And I can do all sorts of things without attacking.
Make Whole: I don’t like losing an item because Dumbo over there sundered it.
Resist Energy: Up to 30 points of energy resistance against each and every attack? And it doesn’t have a total number of points it can stop? Good enough.
Shatter: Some people love it, some people hate it. Note that most doors are not magical and are within the weight and volume restrictions for single items. Yeah, I love it.
Third-level Spells:
Dispel Magic: Another staple.
Fireball: Sometimes you just got to burn something. A LOT of somethings.
Phantom Steed: Much better than fly or overland flight at higher levels. Mid levels, fly is fine instead.
Tongues: I like communication. Don’t you?
Fourth-level Spells:
Black Tentacles: What’s not to love?
Charm Monster: Doesn’t always work, but when it does. GRIN.
Dimension Door: I was there, and now I am here. Sweet.
Secure Shelter: Climb a rope and sleep in a small enclosed space with other sweaty, smelly party members who probably don’t bathe enough? No. I’ll take a nice comfortable bed, thank you.
Fifth-level Spells:
Cloudkill: What it doesn’t kill gets weaker. Except for high level druids and monks. Damn them!
Cone of Cold: If it doesn’t burn, freeze it. Just like chill dude.
Sending: Ok, this is the BEST spell ever designed for sending a message. Note there IS no saving throw. Send a message your recurring villain at 3 in the morning. And every fifteen minutes after that send ANOTHER. I love this spell.
Telekinesis: Come on, come on: you know you’ve always dreamed of chunking that kender into the next county, haven’t you? Yeah. Yeah.
Sixth-level Spells:
Chain Lightning: And if fire and ice don’t get them down, let’s try a thunderbolt or fifteen.
Disintegrate: I point my finger and you don’t exist. Why isn’t this great? It is great.
Shadow Walk: Have to get to Witch Mountain in the next 24 hours or Bob the mini-mart owner who is secretly a terrorist in disguise will set off the nuke? No pro . . . oh, wrong genre.
Undeath to Death: Undead rare? HAH! You haven’t played in any of the games I have been in.
Seventh-level Spells:
Limited Wish: Yeah, it is expensive. But you know, if I have the choice of dying or spending a bit of cash to have exactly the spell I need RIGHT BLOODY NOW, it’s not really a choice. And if I am high enough level to cast this spell, a couple of enchanted gemstones worth 1,500 gp each is not a major expense.
Mage’s Sword: It’s a cohort I don’t need to pay or feed.
Plane Shift: Yeah, you keep on saying that’ll be on a scroll. Until your DM transports you to the First Level of the Abyss in your underwear one night.
Prismatic Spray: Yeah, keep on talking about THIS Rainbow coalition and I’ll zap you.
Eighth-level Spells:
Charm Monster, Mass: Now I have minions. Lots of minions.
Clenched Fist: My favorite spell of all time. Might not be the best, but it’s damn good.
Mind Blank: I don’t like my mind being screwed with. Do you?
Moment of Prescience: Did I mention I like to be prepared?
Ninth-level Spells:
Mage’s Disjunction: The ultimate magic-killer. If I have to, I’ve got it in my arsenal. Don’t make me use it on you.
Meteor Swarm: A lot of people don’t like this spell. These people are what I like to call . . . wrong. You can kill most villages with this one spell, and casting it in a forest is FUN.
Power Word Kill: Another spell folks don’t enjoy. But, after your martial friends have pounded on the critter for 200-400 points of damage this round, why not give it a try? And they get SO pissed off when you claim the kill for yourself. But they’re not mages, are they, so it doesn’t really matter what they think.
Shapechange: Ok, every now and then, I enjoy assuming another form. Now I got them all.
Master Arminas