Goblin Squad Member
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Conversely, if someone wanted to play be a smith type and develop skill and actually play repairing and improving their equipment the game could allow that... but don't force it on people with no interest. Just quietly deduct a fee and say the character took care of it 'off camera'.
Seems to me the smith might get annoyed and quit the show if all he ever got were solo montage scenes because everyone used the "automated smithing machine" rather than talking to him. :P
More seriously... if you just deduct a percentage fee, how does the smith get his money? Does he just some percentage of all the maintenance fees paid by everyone? That really WOULD be boring.
I could see automating the use of maintenance items ("[x] automatically use repair kits when items fall below [_95_]% durability"), but to abstract it away completely seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I prefer games which push 'mundane drudgery' like repairing equipment to the background.
Yes, it is realistic to need to repair equipment... but it is even more realistic for every character to need several hours of sleep around the same time each day. Characters being unavailable while sleeping would be incredibly tedious... so that aspect of realism routinely gets tossed out. Yet other tedious things, like having to constantly click buttons to repair equipment, inexplicably remain in many games.
If the underlying desire is to have economic outlays then that could just be automatic... every day XX% of your total equipment value is deducted from your accumulated gold to reflect ongoing maintenance of your gear. Take out another YY% for food and ZZ% for lodging and you are getting all kinds of realistic compared to many games. If the player actually eats something or has an in-game home then those standard deductions can be waived in place of whatever they are spending on the comparable items... or a character who developed survival skills could gather food and find shelter in the outdoors and could thus reduce or bypass the fees. Conversely, if someone wanted to play be a smith type and develop skill and actually play repairing and improving their equipment the game could allow that... but don't force it on people with no interest. Just quietly deduct a fee and say the character took care of it 'off camera'.
While that all sounds good on the surface, it negates all challanges of logistics. IE if food and water were implimented as a realistic factor, the reason to do it would not be for it to be a meaningless money sink, but an addition of war tactics. Enemy soldiers have set up camp, and are launching attacks, cut off their food supply!. Burn the villages that supply them food, kill the people transporting food to these soldiers etc...
Same for repairing certain equipment, the intent of it is not a money sink. The concepts behind it are to ensure that say when a town has all the items needed for 50 of X item, and 50 people largely benefit from the item, the town still has motive and reason to continue making X item.
Now of course the bulk of this proposal was as mentioned proposed ages before the concept of threading, and at a time when we largely did not understand the equipment loss, (at the time the only quote we had to work with was "Weapons and armor you have equipped are not lost), it was months later when ryan clarified that boots, rings, wonderous items, hoods etc.... were not considered armor in that context.
The threading system itself could completely negate the problem this topic was anticipating, provided that it is balanced properly and does not reach extremes (extreme negative could be if you reach a high enough skills, you can thread everything you will want to use)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tuoweit, I was assuming that if there were some form of in-game equipment repair there would be some benefit to it. For example, if swords maintained by automatic repair do 100% damage then maybe those maintained by a trained smith do 110% or some higher value determined by their skill. That said, in most games equipment repair is handled by going to an NPC vendor (not a PC) and paying some amount... making the only difference from a pure gold deduction the amount of time the player spends doing that rather than something more interesting.
Onishi, that would be fine... if such logistics existed in the game. In every MMO I've played equipment repair is purely a time and money sink. However, are they really going to track how many wet-stones a city under siege has and no longer allow people to sharpen their swords once they run out? Or can you just go to the NPC vendor or auction hall and buy an infinite number? Are people really going to be locked in to a besieged city or will they be able to fast travel in and out? Will there even be protracted sieges over many days? In most MMOs none of those things exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, are they really going to track how many wet-stones a city under siege has and no longer allow people to sharpen their swords once they run out? Or can you just go to the NPC vendor or auction hall and buy an infinite number? Are people really going to be locked in to a besieged city or will they be able to fast travel in and out? Will there even be protracted sieges over many days? In most MMOs none of those things exist.
No, those whetstones (and anything else beyond absolutely basic starter gear) will have been be crafted by players, and not be infinite in supply. We have no idea about sieges yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Onishi, that would be fine... if such logistics existed in the game. In every MMO I've played equipment repair is purely a time and money sink. However, are they really going to track how many wet-stones a city under siege has and no longer allow people to sharpen their swords once they run out? Or can you just go to the NPC vendor or auction hall and buy an infinite number? Are people really going to be locked in to a besieged city or will they be able to fast travel in and out? Will there even be protracted sieges over many days? In most MMOs none of those things exist.
Well at least under my original proposal. (again this idea is all based on how common loss of normal equipment actually becomes, if the best weapons are always threaded and are a significantly larger factor than the rest of your items, this is needed. If this is not the case, and threading a sword either takes out equal amounts of effective other equipment from being threaded, or other things etc... this is unneeded).
The general concept I had proposed was 2 seperate durabilities.
Condition
measured in %age, repaired by whetstone. The consequence of condition, is increased chance of taking durrability damage. IE if you use your sword endlessly without using a whetstone, it will take durrability damage faster.
Durrability
measured in HP, only fixable by a crafter, and requires the same type of materials as the equipment was forged from to be repaired.
The condition that could be repaired from whetstones, is just a minor time calculation. I don't expect whetstones to be rare at all, nor the concern of them. Condition itself is just a minor inconvinience that takes 15 seconds and negligable costs to fix. Durrability on the other hand, Fixing half of the durrability on the other hand, would take a crafter capable of making the weapon, and the same types of materials to make the weapon. Essentially when your weapon is half way down on durrability, you have to do half of what it took to get the weapon to begin with in fixing it.
Condition should probably be encoraging taking 15 seconds to patch up a weapon every 10 minutes or so of active use (IE walking around is not active use). Durrability should probably take about 3 weeks assuming you maintain the weapon well (If you constantly use the weapon with low condition you could break it in a day)
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Goblin Squad Member
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15 seconds to patch up a weapon every 10 min (active or not) is insanity.
Something more like every 2 or 3 hours, is more acceptable. Though I dont have a problem specifically with the durrability thing.
That being said, CBDunkerson makes a good argument about a few things. As I said earlier, you want to avoid making a system that is needlessly complex/annoying. All that does is drive players away. I admit that crafting and gathering should be fairly involved. But durrability and repair systems should not be. And I agree with giving positive re-enforcement instead of negative. Like NPCs and repair kits repair to 100%, but PCs can do 110-120%. Plus repairing it yourself would give the bonus of doing it to 110-20% and for a lot less.
I dont know how many of you are fimiliar with FFXIV, but they originally had a fairly complex crafting and gathering system, and repair/durrability system. When 2.0 comes out there will be some unfortunate dumbing down of the crafing and gathering systems, that I think is a bad move on SE's part. However do to major demand, they had to simplify the insane and aggressive and overly complex durrability/system. People frickin hated it. The system was so complex that you basically had to have half of the recipe for making each piece
of gear (and there were a lot of different types of material) just to repair it, and NPCs only repaired like 70% or something, and by using an NPC it decayed a lot faster, but the general decay time was still very fast, and expensive to repair by an NPC. Consequently people standing around shouting for cheaper repair bills from PCs, instead of adventuring.
Now I know from a crafters stand point that sounds like a wet dream. But for those of us that just want to explore, adventure, find loot, and kill (pvp or pve), this is just boring, annoying, and game breaking.
So again, I implore the devs to ensure that these systems arent needlessly complex and annoying in areas that they dont need to be. And focus on positive re-enforcement and not negative. In a similar vien I believe that GW shot down a food and water idea too, under the smae premis (overly complex/annoying). However, food and drink would be perfectly acceptable if it gave positives and not negatives, like eat and drink or you die...
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Goblin Squad Member
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15 seconds to patch up a weapon every 10 min (active or not) is insanity.
Something more like every 2 or 3 hours, is more acceptable. Though I dont have a problem specifically with the durrability thing.
Insanity? I would say that is a tad of an overstatement. I can't think of any game in which actively swinging a weapon is more than 5% of the time. (Bulk of the time is between battles, between enemies etc...), based on your standard game, 10 minutes of active use, would in reality amount to once per 4 hours in overworld travel, maybe twice in an hour long dungeon (as dungeons tend to be more rapid fire than overworld)
Now I know from a crafters stand point that sounds like a wet dream. But for those of us that just want to explore, adventure, find loot, and kill (pvp or pve), this is just boring, annoying, and game breaking.
So again, I implore the devs to ensure that these systems arent needlessly complex and annoying in areas that they dont need to be. And focus on positive re-enforcement and not...
Well the intent of it is to ensure the removal of items from the economy regularly. It is every bit as important to the adventurers, PVPers etc... that gear goes out of circulation as well.
Why you may ask? simple, with XP grinding taken out of the equasion, what are the adventurers, adventuring for? Obviously items to make gear, develop their kingdom etc... What is the motive of the adventurer who has everything... None at all, he gets bored and quits.
In any MMO there's 2 counters to prevent the same guy from having everything he wants all the time.
Most theme parks use the gear treadmill. IE congrats you got the sword that deals 300 damage, we've added a sword that does 350, oh now there's one that deals 400, etc...
The drawback to this model, it creates larger and larger differences in players, IE people in 1st tier gear, are one shot by people in 3rd tier gear, who are one shotted by people in 5th tier gear. Players are segregated, IE runs of X dungeon, are only to be done by players who have 3rd tier gear. If you are in a different tier than your friend, you probably can't really do much with them, unless you want to solo their missions while they sit on the sidelines and watch.
Model 2, Gear is lost regularly. IE Congradulations you have the sword that deals 300. You probably should also be working towards a spare when something happens to this one. Work on getting a full stock so your side can continue manufacturing and ensuring regular availability for them as they wear out, a continuous job.
Now obviously the true goal needs to be a hybrid of these models, a player can't go on forever without feeling like they are improving at all, but at the same time in an open PVP, sandbox world in which human interaction is a priority, having a gear treadmill at the extent it is in WoW, would be very bad.
Again, the threading system could very well accomplish everything that this suggestion was attempting to gain. It all depends on how often etc... gear is lost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well earlier I did say that it depends on the economy and flow of gear, and whether or not we have "throw away" or "epic" gear. So if all gear is more like on darkfall, then I dont have a dog in this fight, cuz gear is "meh" anyways. Ill probably toss my almost broken sword and get a new one rather than spend the effort to get it repaired.
If you can get awesome gear that is rare and you want to keep. Then, yes thank God for threading gear. But it seems like we are having two seperate conversations: Item Loss and Durrability Loss.
Item loss needs to be kept in check with things like the threading and what not, but it will happen and I can accept that (though I do have some issues with the whole death curse thing). Durability is not the same thing as item loss, unless you support things completely breaking and basically being lost, and that is the connection? In wich case see the part above about "throw away" economy vs "epic" economy. If its more like "epic" than "throw away", then I would never support item loss through durrability. But I am ok with them being unequipable til repaired or maybe just greatly reduced in power/attack etc til repaired.
I havent seen anyone specifically address my concern about overly agressive/repetitive/annoying/complex systems though. Its not that I dont want a system, just not a crazy one.
Also what about positive re-enforcement instead of negative, as in bonuses for doing something vs penalties for not?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can get awesome gear that is rare and you want to keep. Then, yes thank God for threading gear. But it seems like we are having two seperate conversations: Item Loss and Durrability Loss.
Which IMO is the short term thinking, that people start by thinking they want, then quit the game in a rather short time after due to a lack of things to do. IE the point in time in which you have what you need, it is safe and protected, is generally followed with. "OK what now". This combination generally leads to boredom and quitting.
In wich case see the part above about "throw away" economy vs "epic" economy. If its more like "epic" than "throw away", then I would never support item loss through durrability. But I am ok with them being unequipable til repaired or maybe just greatly reduced in power/attack etc til repaired.
Well most of what I'm seeing pretty much implies throw away economy. IE several quotes from ryan about gear will be mass produced, lost frequently etc...
I havent seen anyone specifically address my concern about overly agressive/repetitive/annoying/complex systems though. Its not that I dont want a system, just not a crazy one.
I honestly don't see anything particularly complex in this system. I do agree actually, the condition thing is more of a flavor thing, and could certainly go if the dev's or players consider it too complicated to follow. The general point of it is to give the general feel of maintaining and taking care of ones equipment, moreso than any mechanical reasons.
The actually requiring a crafter and materials to fix weapons on the other hand, that IMO is critical to actually keep the process going, rather than having the weapons pile up undesired. The general concept IS essentially to have repairing as a similar process as replacing. Instead of the standard of repairing being super easy, replacing being insanely hard, IMO if keeping the economy going is a concern, they should be of comperable difficulty.
Also what about positive re-enforcement instead of negative, as in bonuses for doing something vs penalties for not?
If there is a positive re-enforcement that gets old gear out of the economy, and keeps adventurers motivated to continue questing without creating enormous variations in power, feel free to throw a suggestion out there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead of using time to determine amount of condition loss, use damage dealt or received. Such as 0.1% of damage dealt or deflected by a steel sword. Steel armor would lose about 0.1% of all damage received. Type of material used to make the item, such as hardness which Hark had talked about, would affect the actual percent of condition loss. This way heavy hitters and those who get hit a lot would realistically be losing condition quicker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Onishi - Thanks for the clarification of a few points, I appreciate it. Also if we are in general going with a more "throw away" economy, then as I said, Im left with nothing really to complain about. And as long as either getting new gear or fixing old are not too complex, then I dont see a problem. And as long as durability doesnt become more of a chore, then content/economy generation, then so be it.
Even if that means I carry multiple throw-away sword +1s. My biggest motivation behind this is just being able to leave into the wilderness for hours at a time. I dont like having an adventure cut short due to needing to go back to town every 30 min to an hour.
With a "throw-away" economy I dont see a specific "need" for positive re-enforcement per se, but I guess it couldnt hurt to have bonuses on durability (120% or slower durability loss) from self-repairs or soemthing. Though it could be great for food and drink bonuses instead of dying because you dont, but thats for another thread.