Goblin Squad Member
|
Here's one thought I just had: Spellcasters! How should equipment damage/quality effect sorcerers, clerics, and the like? In tabletop Pathfinder, they are much less reliant on gear than other classes, as you don't need an expensive weapon to cast decent spells. How should equipment for mages work in PFO? Should magic wands and staves give bonuses to magic attack and damage, enough that no serious spellcaster would go without one? And what about monks? Maybe better handwraps and gauntlets would help them... martial-arts more effectively? Clearly, you don't want to just leave almost half the archetypes out of the equipment loop... how should gear be made to affect them?
I'll also add one of my favorite quotes about gear, taken from a webpage about the game Iron Heroes:
"You are not your magic weapon and armour. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death."
(For the curious, Iron Heroes is a tabletop game using the 3rd ed D&D license. I must confess that I don't know much else; I got this off of the TV Tropes page about it, but the quote made me giggle too much to not share it.)
Well I would say they almost definently will need to make all classes about equally dependent on gear for multiple reasons.
1. I do think equipment should have impact on what abilities can be done Most likely the only way to control and tone down a frankenhero and not make it super powered, is if several (but not all) skills were tied to requiring certain items/classes of weapons armors etc...
Second because skills etc.. level up automatically. wiz/sorc/monks cannot get a free lunch to an extent
and 3rd, I do think monks will need their own something. For the most part armor balances out several abilities. Arcane spell failure, can't sneak in heavy etc... With ability scores effecting learning speed and not abilities, monk is like a free bypass to all of that, which IMO can't quite work right with what we know of the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"You are not your magic weapon and armour. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death."
I cannot +1 this enough...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
One thing I do wish people would remember is that Goblinworks has stated that resources are quite likely non-respawning the way that most Nodes do in more recent MMOs, unlike in EvE in which I am told resource actually disappear completely and do not respawn. That means you make 10,000 swords, that's 10,000 swords worth of metal ingots forever removed from the game.
I don't object to items degrading over time and needing to be repaired with more materials similar to what was required to build them in the first place, but if adventuring means we have to turn every third or second hex into a strip/pit mine just to ensure our meatier companions can keep their equipment up to snuff, maybe we're doing something wrong.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
One thing I do wish people would remember is that Goblinworks has stated that resources are quite likely non-respawning the way that most Nodes do in more recent MMOs, unlike in EvE in which I am told resource actually disappear completely and do not respawn. That means you make 10,000 swords, that's 10,000 swords worth of metal ingots forever removed from the game.
I don't object to items degrading over time and needing to be repaired with more materials similar to what was required to build them in the first place, but if adventuring means we have to turn every third or second hex into a strip/pit mine just to ensure our meatier companions can keep their equipment up to snuff, maybe we're doing something wrong.
Well no matter what you do you'll have issues if it really does the pit thought. If gear dosn't degrade, and in 5 years we are down to hand me down gear, crafting and harvesting go the way of the dodo. Do you actually have a link to that quote?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Going back through Mr Dancey's posts, I can't find it, so, yet again, I am talking out my Large-Sized arse, it seems. If it's not a Dancey-post, it's not canon I think.
But it does raise an interesting point. If resources do not 'respawn', does that mean it is entirely possible to 'strip' regions of non-renewable resources within the lifespan of a character (2.5 years = maximum level, apparently) and thus force guilds to abandon towns and villages when their mines and forests have been completely used up?
I'm hoping for 'No' here. Slow respawn rates, yes, otherwise items breaking or degrading will result in some very ruthless tactics from the bigger Guilds and Alliances to steamroll smaller groups and completely dominate the landscape in a drive to keep their own equipment in as good a condition as possible and to create replacement pieces en-mass.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going back through Mr Dancey's posts, I can't find it, so, yet again, I am talking out my Large-Sized arse, it seems. If it's not a Dancey-post, it's not canon I think.
But it does raise an interesting point. If resources do not 'respawn', does that mean it is entirely possible to 'strip' regions of non-renewable resources within the lifespan of a character (2.5 years = maximum level, apparently) and thus force guilds to abandon towns and villages when their mines and forests have been completely used up?
I'm hoping for 'No' here. Slow respawn rates, yes, otherwise items breaking or degrading will result in some very ruthless tactics from the bigger Guilds and Alliances to steamroll smaller groups and completely dominate the landscape in a drive to keep their own equipment in as good a condition as possible and to create replacement pieces en-mass.
I'm still really hoping for a hybrid, the web based game pardus had an interesting approach to resource nodes. Basically the resource nodes had a maximum, and they went up based on how much they had, if you left a node above 70% or so, it would recharge to full the next day, if it went down to half it would only regen up to 70%ish, and if you absolutely sucked the life out of it, it could take weeks to replenish. It was an occasional tactic in some situations for a group to come in and attempt to suck down as many resource nodes as possible to make things difficult on your enemy, and it gave people extra incentive to control who mines what and set laws regarding not "stripmining".
In something like PFO I think a system like that could work, tacked on with druids or something having an ability to boost or slow replenish rates. (Possibly creating an option of something to do if you either take an enemy mine but know you are going to lose it very soon, or if you get to the mine but can't quite take over it). The system itself also could create odd conundrums in war time. Do we overtax our resources today giving us a boost in our weaponry and defenses now, but in the long run slowing us down
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Going back through Mr Dancey's posts, I can't find it, so, yet again, I am talking out my Large-Sized arse, it seems. If it's not a Dancey-post, it's not canon I think.
But it does raise an interesting point. If resources do not 'respawn', does that mean it is entirely possible to 'strip' regions of non-renewable resources within the lifespan of a character (2.5 years = maximum level, apparently) and thus force guilds to abandon towns and villages when their mines and forests have been completely used up?
I'm hoping for 'No' here. Slow respawn rates, yes, otherwise items breaking or degrading will result in some very ruthless tactics from the bigger Guilds and Alliances to steamroll smaller groups and completely dominate the landscape in a drive to keep their own equipment in as good a condition as possible and to create replacement pieces en-mass.
I too am hoping for a hybrid. With slow respawn it is possible to deplete your mine. This keeps resource conflict going while also keeping player owned resources producing materials. In fact, I would like to see it so that if you deplete a resource, it's respawn slows...a resource long left untended will have a fast respawn (until it is continually mined out). This gives a benefit to those who practice resource management and are careful never to deplete a resource. Continually strip mining a resource will decrease its spawn rate to near zero (but it should always be > 0).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's one thought I just had: Spellcasters! How should equipment damage/quality effect sorcerers, clerics, and the like?
I would love to see casting spells require reagents, and I would also love to be able to cast spells into staves/wands that use the reagents at the time you load the spell, rather than when you release it from the staff.
Perhaps certain staffs/wands are only suitable for certain classes of spells, or maybe you can add certain gemstones or other bling to the staff/wand to make it suitable for holding more/different spells.
On a real tangent, if there are any kinds of actions that consume resources, there should be a special bag you can put spare resources in that won't automatically be used. This way, when you run out of resources in your main bag, you have to physically move them from your backup bag, which forces you to be aware that you're about to run out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That actually is an interesting concept, and might actually do something to 'level the playing field' of Casters vs Non-Magicals. Yes you can call forth miniature apocalypses from bat-s#+* and gemstones, but without them, you're just a cranky librarian with a big stick or a Preacher in Plate-armor.
Obviously not every spell should require going out and gathering components from the field, but a sizeable number should.
Alternatively...............
Perhaps rather than having Spell-Slots per day, Casters are limited by how many Spell Components they can carry. Having high scores in your relevant casting ability score should grant higher DCs, naturally, but what about Casters being reliant upon two non-lootable items, a Spell Component Pouch and a Material Casting Component Bag?
The Spell Component Pouch is effectively your 'Spells Per Day', containing the mundane resources (heh) required to cast most spells. The Material Casting Component Bag is the resource that requires actual components from the world around you, such as aforementioned b~!$#$&, hand-mirrors and the like.
Each time you cast a spell from the Spell Component Pouch, you deduct a number of Components equal to the level of the Spell.
If you cast a spell requiring a specific reagent or focus, you need to have at least one of those items in your Material Casting Component Bag to perform the spell.
This will hopefully stop people spamming mass AoE spells or calling forth an endless army of summon monsters to chew up your villagers, while still capturing the flavour of the Tabletop Casting System. You don't just stand there going "Fireball fireball fireball magic missiles fireball", knowing how many spells you can cast between resting phases, and that a spell cast to buff yourself is a spell you can't use to blast the enemy could hopefully make people be a lot more pick-and-choose with their spell-lists.
Wizards and other Spell-Casters who must prepare their spells in advance could have larger spell-lists (being able to learn effectively every spell in their list, and slightly earlier to boot!) at the trade-off of having to 'tie up' Spell Components for each spell, which Sorcerers and other Spell-Casters who have a static pool of spells to choose from can just cast away, but have to watch that they don't burn themselves out and then become a lame duck!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Why limit the amount of components that can be carried? New players will have an opprutinity to make some cash by gathering the things that older characters use, creating a market in 'generic components' similar to the market for whetstones and armoror's hammers. Specific spells would have specific components and/or foci, which need to be acquired individually. The most powerful spells should require things like wyvern's eyes or the claws of a griffon, in the same way that drake's scales and dragon leather make armor and basilisk corpses make weapons.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Limiting the Components prevents people from just standing there and spamming spells over and over and over. One of the reasons a Caster is considered more powerful than a Non-Caster is that with a single Spell, a Caster can do more than any Non-Caster can with the same amount of time.
It prevents Casters from just running along casting Fireball every 12 seconds on your crops. It stops Casters from doing nothing but standing behind the melee and casting their Healing spells. It makes Casting more than just "Press 1, 1, 2, 1, 3, then loot"
The 'Basic' Spell Pouch should hopefully contain 50 Spell-Levels of Components, with better quality and rare Spell Pouches containing larger pools of Components or granting unique abilities to the Spellcaster using them, and possibly adding 20 'levels' worth of additional Components per bonus to the relative Casting Ability Score, perhaps 25 'levels' for the Sorcerer to make up for the limited spell selection, ensures that the Caster always has plenty of Components for his spells, but not an endless array.
The Material Casting Component Bag, on the other hand, can hold however many Focus and Rare Spell Components as the designers believe the Casting Classes need.
An easier analogy for the Component Pouch is a variation on the Mana Pool. The Component Pouch should not refill until the Caster rests, be it for 1 minute or even 5, although I think that is really punishing a player for being a caster. Spellcasting is powerful, and hopefully we'll see mechanisms in place that Reward Casters for being intelligent with their spells. However I can see this leading to 'Spell Miser' syndrome.... gah. Should not be posting this late at night!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Why limit the amount of components that can be carried? New players will have an opprutinity to make some cash by gathering the things that older characters use, creating a market in 'generic components' similar to the market for whetstones and armoror's hammers. Specific spells would have specific components and/or foci, which need to be acquired individually. The most powerful spells should require things like wyvern's eyes or the claws of a griffon, in the same way that drake's scales and dragon leather make armor and basilisk corpses make weapons.
Limiting what can be carried at once is kind of a necessity to allow any limitations. There needs to be some limit to prevent spells from being spammed mindlessly and non-stop by anyone, If components are the only limiting factor, and to make it affordable for a low level player to cast fireball 10 times with what he has, it will most likely be affordable for a vet with a good business going to spam it 3,000 times in a day. If you add in a limitation that they can only cast so much before going back to town no matter what (possibly increasable to an extent via a crafted component bag etc...), then you can have an increasing, but scaled increasing, limit of spells usage between visits to town.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If there are going to be arbitrary limits on how many spells I'm allowed to cast between rest sessions, I would prefer it just be a simple arbitrary restriction, than to have some kind of in-game system of components and spell pouches whose sole purpose is to implement that restriction.
My understanding of the tabletop rules is:
Wizards must prepare their spells beforehand, but has access to a large number of spells in various schools, usually (always?) choosing a single primary school which has an opposing school that they will either be barred from or at least significantly weaker in.
Sorcerers have access to fewer total spells, but may cast any of them without having to prepare them beforehand, and are not limited by schools, but rather choose a Bloodline that describes the source of their power.
Both are limited to a set number of spells they may cast per day based on their level and their Intelligence for Wizards or their Charisma for Sorcerers.
I expect both will have a mana pool in-game, with the more powerful spells being primarily limited by cooldowns. I hope they require reagents for most spells, but I don't think that needs to be used to control the number of spells that can be cast.
What I'd really like to see for Wizards is an additional mechanic where they actually do prepare a set number of spells they can cast, and that each spell has a chance of being forgotten when they go to cast it, such that there will be occasions where you go to cast a spell and you can't because you've forgotten it. I think the chance should accumulate so that it's fairly predictable that you will, for example, be able to cast Magic Missiles 3 or 4 times before forgetting it, but that there are rarer occasions where you've forgotten it already when you go to cast it the 2nd time, or where you actually remember it enough to cast it 5 or 6 times. Increasing skill with the spell should lower this to the point that you never forget the spell.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If there are going to be arbitrary limits on how many spells I'm allowed to cast between rest sessions, I would prefer it just be a simple arbitrary restriction, than to have some kind of in-game system of components and spell pouches whose sole purpose is to implement that restriction.
For the most part I agree, though I also think component pouches do have potential to be the damagable weapon for wizards, as well as making a craftable item to boost the limit. I think the main thing that I like of the interest of the wizard having to go to town to regain or recharge has potential to create the hybrid system between recharging mana bars and vancian spellcasting. So far my favorite MMO spellcasting system is DDO's, mainly because it held this combination very nicely, a wizard picked spells out in a tavern or just after resting, and then had a mana bar that depleted similar to other games, but how much he could cast between rests was finite, he could not get more unless he reached a shrine, basically it negated the "go supernova, rest, supernova, rest" tactics that every other MMO does. The problem is this system doesn't work in an open world, and my proposed system might not either, wizards out in the middle of nowhere are toast, while wizards defending their front gates are gods.
It will be interesting to see if some sort of balance or hybrid is possible.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... I also think component pouches do have potential to be the damagable weapon for wizards...
I would love to see component pouches as meaningful gear for casters, with crafted versions improving capacity and/or ease/speed of access. Requiring special circumstances to refill it from larger containers in inventory seems like a good idea too. And I can easily see how the capacity on the pouch could be a natural limiting factor on how many, and which, spells the caster could cast. But I have a very strong aversion to level restrictions on gear, and would hate to see a piece of gear with level restrictions on it used to implement what should really be straight-forward level restrictions on number of spells castable.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... I also think component pouches do have potential to be the damagable weapon for wizards...I would love to see component pouches as meaningful gear for casters, with crafted versions improving capacity and/or ease/speed of access. Requiring special circumstances to refill it from larger containers in inventory seems like a good idea too. And I can easily see how the capacity on the pouch could be a natural limiting factor on how many, and which, spells the caster could cast. But I have a very strong aversion to level restrictions on gear, and would hate to see a piece of gear with level restrictions on it used to implement what should really be straight-forward level restrictions on number of spells castable.
I also agree with you there, level restrictions should not be in this game, (possibly proficiency etc... but not level restricted gear).
Component pouches if done this way should be a capacity, say quality of the pouches range between 50 and 150 capacity
cantrip reagents take up 2 capacity and don't expend
1st level reagents take up 4 capacity per use
2nd level 8 capacity
etc..
Now a fresh wizard with an insane sugar daddy friend could wind up with a 150 capacity pouch, and be able to cast 3x more level 1 spells then others of his level if he desires, maybe there will even be a skill for careful packing that allows him to fit 10% more in it if he chooses to train it.
Also these pouches should wear out at roughly the same rate or whatever system as swords do for a fighter etc...
Disclaimer: as always these numbers are pulled out of thin air and are intended as a general concept, not as an exact amount of spells I think any caster should be granted at a certain time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Why limit the amount of components that can be carried? New players will have an opprutinity to make some cash by gathering the things that older characters use, creating a market in 'generic components' similar to the market for whetstones and armoror's hammers. Specific spells would have specific components and/or foci, which need to be acquired individually. The most powerful spells should require things like wyvern's eyes or the claws of a griffon, in the same way that drake's scales and dragon leather make armor and basilisk corpses make weapons.
Because they have mass and volume. A spell may only require a leaf to cast but a garbage bag of leaves can get heavy and carrying one greatly reduces your ability to swing a battle axe. Imagine a spell that consumes a troll or giant skull, they would be heavy and take up a lot of room for one casting.
with crafted versions improving capacity and/or ease/speed of access
They should all be crafted versions...
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Why limit the amount of components that can be carried? New players will have an opprutinity to make some cash by gathering the things that older characters use, creating a market in 'generic components' similar to the market for whetstones and armoror's hammers. Specific spells would have specific components and/or foci, which need to be acquired individually. The most powerful spells should require things like wyvern's eyes or the claws of a griffon, in the same way that drake's scales and dragon leather make armor and basilisk corpses make weapons.Limiting what can be carried at once is kind of a necessity to allow any limitations. There needs to be some limit to prevent spells from being spammed mindlessly and non-stop by anyone, If components are the only limiting factor, and to make it affordable for a low level player to cast fireball 10 times with what he has, it will most likely be affordable for a vet with a good business going to spam it 3,000 times in a day. If you add in a limitation that they can only cast so much before going back to town no matter what (possibly increasable to an extent via a crafted component bag etc...), then you can have an increasing, but scaled increasing, limit of spells usage between visits to town.
Why should it be easier to gather 10 pinches of bat guano than 3000, if that many are available? Why does a high-level character have more time than a low-level one? For the 'cheap' resources, the market value will fall somewhere between the cheapest value for the time it takes to gather them and the highest value for the time it takes to gather them. If it takes 20 minutes to gather a dumpster full of guano and put it on the market, and only 1 minute to go to the market and buy it, then the price of guano on the market is roughly equal to the median value of 19 minutes. Anyone who thinks their time is worth more than the cost of components will buy them, and anyone who thinks that components sell for more than their time is worth will gather them. Assuming no transaction cost (bad assumption), then everyone who can't afford components is selling them; with small transaction costs, there may be some people who think that components are worth more than their sale price but less than their purchase price.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Why should it be easier to gather 10 pinches of bat guano than 3000, if that many are available? Why does a high-level character have more time than a low-level one? For the 'cheap' resources, the market value will fall somewhere between the cheapest value for the time it takes to gather them and the highest value for the time it takes to gather them. If it takes 20 minutes to gather a dumpster full of guano and put it on the market, and only 1 minute to go to the market and buy it, then the price of guano on the market is roughly equal to the median value of 19 minutes. Anyone who thinks their time is worth more than the cost of components will buy them, and anyone who thinks that components sell for more...
A high level player will likely make far more money per minute of work, than a low level player. Going out and killing a great red dragon, in the middle of a high danger PVP zone, will net far more money for the time than killing boars near town or scooping up guano, as a result a high risktaking adventure will do 1 hour of high risk high reward tasks, and use that money from 1 hours work to buy 24+ hours worth of work done by lower less powerful characters, the value of 20 minutes will vary drastically based on what you are doing, and the more dangerous high risk tasks you are doing, the more valuable 20 minutes is.
I propose a compromise:PFOL. PathFinder OnLine.Why does this make me think of peeing on the floor out loud?
This made me pee on the floor quietly to myself.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
A high level player will likely make far more money per minute of work, than a low level player. Going out and killing a great red dragon, in the middle of a high danger PVP zone, will net far more money for the time than killing boars near town or scooping up guano, as a result a high risktaking adventure will do 1 hour of high risk high reward tasks, and use that money from 1 hours work to buy 24+ hours worth of work done by lower less powerful characters, the value of 20 minutes will vary drastically based on what you are doing, and the more dangerous high risk tasks you are doing, the more valuable 20 minutes is.
Why should it be easier to gather 10 pinches of bat guano than 3000, if that many are available? Why does a high-level character have more time than a low-level one? For the 'cheap' resources, the market value will fall somewhere between the cheapest value for the time it takes to gather them and the highest value for the time it takes to gather them. If it takes 20 minutes to gather a dumpster full of guano and put it on the market, and only 1 minute to go to the market and buy it, then the price of guano on the market is roughly equal to the median value of 19 minutes. Anyone who thinks their time is worth more than the cost of components will buy them, and anyone who thinks that components sell for more...
The higher the demand for easily harvested resources is, the higher the price. If there is a very high demand for components, then the asking price will go very high. If demand is intermittent or exceeds supply, then the price is low.
|
These are my ideas for things I saw in post.
Weapons, durability is lessened by use and when sundered if it reaches 0 then it is unusable but still can be broken down to recover some resources(about 50%) condition affects the speed of change in durability and is affected only by time and sunder. Neither are percentages, instead the skill of the crafter sets the max on these numbers when made.
Armor, durability and condition are like above however sunder doesn't make sense here as the entire point of armor is to take hits, so it should lose durability when ever the wearer gets hit but specifically targeting armor doesn't grant anything since you can't hit it any harder then when hit the person wearing it.
Shield fall under weapons since you can hit back of them to break hand grips/straps etc which can't really be done on armor.
Repairing, when you repair you can never repair to 100% only 99%, in addition/or when reapiaring there is a chance that the max stats will drop and condition, remaining durability, and repairers skill all affect that chance. So you want to get repaired while only light damage and by someone with high skill.
Condition, the max is reduced with sunder but otherwise just buy something(whetstone, oil, etc) to maintain things with and that something lasts a set amount of time to keep things automatically at max. If used up or lost(like when killed and looted) then the items start degrading condition slowly over time.
Spell casters, first the limiting resource is mana which recovers at a SLOW rate something like 1/4 max( or some set amount) per 15-30 minutes(maybe based on ability score) then some spells require a focus which can be lost on death since the focus doesn't get equipped. Some spells require componants(polymorph for example requires a bit of the creature to be turned into) however the metamagic feat eschew mats reduces the need for all but the expensive ones in exchange for costing more mana to cast.
(This prevents someone standing around dropping fireballs all day long but sticks pretty close to the pnp.)
Spellcasters also wear clothes and some do wear armor(10% spell fail not that bad for some) more so because pathfinder has feats to reduce the spell fail for arcane and divne casters can wear armor all day long with no problem at all. And all of the above is subject to durabilty dmg. Spellcasters are likely to use weapons in addition to spells so as to not overtax their mana reserves. Even a high level straight caster can't afford to use all their mana without some notion of selfsacrifice or protection by others.
Forgive me if I missed the obvious already. I've seen mention made of deterioration over time of gear. A concern for me on PFO is if this, or some version of this concept, occurs over real time or only over time spent in play doing stuff with the gear in question.
The Real Life Monster often demands extended amounts of time away from the game, which with EVE and PFO means I can keep plugging in skill training but nothing else. My stuff disintegrating because it was eaten by moths while I had to deal with the aforementioned Real Life Monster is a deal-breaker.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As I do with many things, I fall back to UO's system or something similar as my preference.
The use of items, weapons, armor, tools etc causes them to take durability damage, and the more they lose, the less effective they become. They can be repaired, but they lose maximum durability in the process. Only a grandmaster blacksmith can repair it to full durability, but even then it may lose some, so over time your equipment becomes less effective and breaks. I remember early on I picked up a little blacksmithy to repair my equipment, and was horrified when my shield shattered in one blow from a harpy because I had repaired it with my mediocre skill so many times.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If I am quite good at using a sabre then my swords should degrade less quickly than if I were less skilled, and my sabre would degrade less quickly than other kinds of sword. Further practice would have made me better at maintenance chores like sharpening/whetting, polishing the rust from my chain links with sand and oiling chain links. Leathers need mink oil at high levels but only tallow at low levels.
So the amount of maintenance should go down as a character ascends in skill, but the costs associated should go up.
Well now that we know that when dying your gear is not going to be destroyed or stolen [/qoute]
Where exactly is that posted? Would very much like to read it myself as this is news to me as until now the only thing I have seen about losing loot was as soon as someone other then you looted your corpse they got one or two items off you and everything else in your bag was destroyed.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I dont mind gear decay, but it shouldnt be to the point of being annoying or a chore. FFXIV 1.0 in its early form is a perfect example of how not to do it. It was fairly expensive to get repair from an NPC and only repaired it to like 75% i think, and PCs could repair to full but even doing it yourself it was only a little less expensive. Add to this that adventuring for 30 mins to and hour or so could degrade you to 0%........ you get the idea.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hehe got to love all the thread necros recently :)
Seriously... I had a big list of stuff to correct and then Nihimon point out that the thread was a year old... :)
I'd still like to point out though that just because a sword is down to 20% durability doesn't mean there's only 1/5th of the metal left in it! Durability shouldn't affect how much usable raw material you can recover from it (being outright broken is another story).
Probably a question that has been answered before but I am fairly new to the pathifinder idea so please don't shoot me :)
People seem to be assuming that only items carried are lootable and equipement worn is safe...fair enough. Then people mention they will go raiding and leave all the spare stuff in the bank.
The question that occurs to me is what if the settlement the bank is in gets raided? Do we get to loot the bank?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
WRT magic weapons in PnP the SRD says this:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.
That said, you would still be rather stupid to be wielding a fragile but very expensive weapon like say a vorpal dagger in any situation (PvP?) where it may be sundered.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For a game to support crafting you need to have item lose in some form.
I would like to see a combination of item lose and item upkeep.
Item lose would be something that happens when you die. When you die 2-3 random peices of gear you are wearing get destroyed. Threaded gear can be destroyed but at a greatly reduced rate (say something like only 1% chance). Another 1-2 items in your backpack get destroyed.
If you die after say 5 minutes your corpse becomes lootable (immediatly if its in pvp). When a player clicks on your corpse they will randomly loot 2-3 items from your person and 2-3 items in your backpack. Threaded items would have a reduced chance to get looted (again only 1%).
Item upkeep. Item upkeep can easily be tied to use of the item, ala durability. items that provide a constant effect (like say a ring of protection) slowly degrage as they are used. So if you get hit by a sword the ring of protection degrades a bit, but if you get hit by a spells, your cloak of resistance degrades.
in order to upkeep your item you need either 1) A PC with the proper skills or 2) a repair kit, which is crafted by a PC with the proper skills.
The reason to have a PC repair your equipment could be that it takes less resources than a repair kit, or perhaps they can overcharge your item, giving it 110% durability.
in order to repair an item you need the correct repair kit. These kits could come in various types.
a) repair kit is for non magical weapons/armor.
b) repair kit for non magical special materials (mithril, cold steel..etc.)
C) Different repair kits for varying level of enchants (say a +1 long sword requires a +1 repair kit, +2 requires +2. A +1 flaming longsword would require a +2 repair kit)
d) same as C, but if your sword is a special material you need a +2 mithril repair kit
e)Same with rings/cloaks, based on the power you would need different repair kits
So most people will run around with say +2 or +3 gear, and only bust out their holy avengers for special occasions. That is fine since something like holy avengers and robes of the archmage should be very very rare. Basically those items should require a level 20 crafter (full 2.5 years to get) to make and maintain.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Probably a question that has been answered before but I am fairly new to the pathifinder idea so please don't shoot me :)
People seem to be assuming that only items carried are lootable and equipement worn is safe...fair enough. Then people mention they will go raiding and leave all the spare stuff in the bank.
The question that occurs to me is what if the settlement the bank is in gets raided? Do we get to loot the bank?
No shooting, honest.
If/when you die yu automatically take with yoou whateer you had in your hands at the time of death, your worn armor, and whatever few items you have threaded.
Note that worn armore does not include jewelry. I doubt a cloak is considered armor.
The number of threads you can make use of is also limited.
When someone loots yur body anything they do not take will be destroyed along with your corpse. So no corpse runs, it will do us no good.
And finally if your bank is in your settlement and the settlement is destroyed (a settlement cannot be captured) the bank and everything in it would similarly be destroyed.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Here's one thought I just had: Spellcasters! How should equipment damage/quality effect sorcerers, clerics, and the like? In tabletop Pathfinder, they are much less reliant on gear than other classes, as you don't need an expensive weapon to cast decent spells. How should equipment for mages work in PFO? Should magic wands and staves give bonuses to magic attack and damage, enough that no serious spellcaster would go without one? And what about monks? Maybe better handwraps and gauntlets would help them... martial-arts more effectively? Clearly, you don't want to just leave almost half the archetypes out of the equipment loop... how should gear be made to affect them?
I'll also add one of my favorite quotes about gear, taken from a webpage about the game Iron Heroes:
"You are not your magic weapon and armour. You are not your spell buffs. You are not how much gold you have, or how many times you've been raised from the dead. When a Big Bad Demon snaps your sword in two, you do not cry because that was your holy avenger. You leap onto its back, climb up to its head, and punch it in the eye, then get a new damn sword off of the next humanoid you headbutt to death."
Sorcerors and Wizards tend to run through wands, staves and scrolls like crazy while adventuring. Nonrechargable magic items suck the gold right out of them.
(For the curious, Iron Heroes is a tabletop game using the 3rd ed D&D license. I must confess that I don't know much else; I got this off of the TV Tropes page about it, but the quote made me giggle too much to not share it.)
@Darsch, that post from Onishi is about a year old. I'm sure he knows better now :)
Ahh okay, i should have checked the date but i saw new posts and read that and was like wait what did i miss something?!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@leperkhaun
I dont know what kind of item loss and durability system they will have. I like the general direction you are going, but the amount of item loss in both PvE and PvP seems a bit excessive. Though I guess it depends on the economy and how much it flows.
I mean if its more like Darkfall, the items in that game were useful, but I never felt like anything was epic. So the loss wasnt that painful and I could fairly easily replace it. But if Items are difficult to obtain and are awesome items, I wouldnt go that direction. I wouldnt wish that on my enemies or victims. Youll have item loss as it is from your corpse being looted durring war or from random PvP encounters. And possibly PvE corpse husk loss, if there is a timer or if its in an impossible place.
Besides, I'd like to be able to make a few mistakes here and there w/o constantly being punished for it. You also dont want to scare off new players. There is a ballance approach of appropriate death penalty vs making people ragequit. Im sure GWs knows where to draw the line.
The only other thing Ill say about your idea is that I have played in games with systems similar with regards to the repair kit. The thing you have to be careful of is not to make it needlessly complex. Keep it simple with something like: repair kits grade 1 through 6, or based on equipment type (plate, leather).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I say make it nice and complex, it just adds more to the economy that way.
Lets give it 3 stats, Condition, HP, and Hardness.
Condition is going to be a percentage value showing how effective the item is compared it being in perfect working order. This stat will be what degrades through regular use.
HP is basically how much health the item has. Each time the item is repaired or damaged by an attack that targets equipment this is the stat that drops. The worse the condition of the item, the lower quality of the tools used for repair, and the lower the skill of the person repairing the more this stat drops.
Hardness is both a measure of how hard it is damage the item and how hard it is to repair. The higher this stat the slower Condition degrades, the more resistant the item is to equipment attacks, and the more damage is done to the items HP when repaired with insufficient tools or skill.
The result is that cheap gear is easy to maintain but you need to do it a lot and need to replace it a lot. Higher quality gear will last a lot longer and not need repair as often but if you aren't invested in repair skills might need to be taken to a professional for repair work. Top end gear would probably require you to take it to a master repairman with top end tool and pay exorbitant amounts of money to repair every time it drops down to 99% because you want to minimize repair damage done to the item. It also means that rare resources can be very rare because equipment made from rare materials don't need to be replaced as often. It also means that if repair tools decay it makes for a solid cycle of resource consumption.
If you want to add an extra level of depth you could also have Equipment decay over time, which things like oiling a sword would serve to halt.
Now I do see people wanting to be able to hold onto specific pieces of equipment because they like it and would rather not replace it. In that case I think there could be an option to restore the HP of gear, but it should be very expensive such that it could cost as much as buying a brand new copy of what you are repairing.
These rules could also be used in other ways. For example when a piece of gear is first crafted is could start at 0% condition and the crafter would need to "repair" it up to 100%. The varying quality based on the skill of different crafters could add variety to the market. So you could have crafters that build high end equipment that doesn't last as long, while you have others that specialize in lower end equipment that is very reliable and doesn't require repair very often. If these crafting and repairing trees are completely separate skill trees it also adds another specialist to the market making the whole economy that much more dynamic.
@Turin the Mad,
The devs have not - to my knowledge - addressed this, but I would be surprised if they made gear decay over time. I would expect if they do it at all that it will be based on use.
I suspect so too, but it's been the proverbial moth in the wardrobe for a few months now. ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"I doubt I'll spend much time discussing this, and I read most of the thread, but not all of it. So if you feel the need to discuss my point, I wouldn't aim your response at me, I may or may not feel drawn to this thread again."
"That being said, I feel like I should be capable of having an iconic item. Maybe I have to thread it, but I should be allowed to say, 'this is my father's sword, and his father's before him', and it have some weight because the sword isn't just going to break later on. I accept it can't be all my gear, but since the threading system exists, can we get some item protection on at least one or two pieces?"
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In a player generated economy there has to be loss of gear in some way. There will be player looting, but the thread system will limit this somewhat.
There needs to be another form of loss and another form of a money sink. If weapons and armor damage through use, than that will give crafters another source of business for repairs. Common items would probably just be discarded when nearly useless. More valuable items may require a higher level crafter to repair.
Rate magic items will likely be invulnerable to wear and tear. Crafted magic items could be made this way, for an extra cost, even though they may not be rare.
There may also have to be repair crafters (nps) that are available in most or all settlements for those times we can't find a more skilled PC crafter.
It is going to have to be a complex system, because a player generated economy is complex. A great deal of balancing and macro adjustments have to be made to control that economy.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My take on this is that adventurers will likely have some means to "fixing" the normal wear and tear on most items - a whet stone helps not only to keep a weapon sharp, but also helps remove some minor dings and notches. When these get too bad, he/she should head to a Crafter who specializes in that form of equipment (weapon forgers, armorers, leather workers for leather armor and packs, tailors for cloth robes and outfits, etc...) To keep the economy balanced, some Crafters will need to make whet stones, weapon/armor oil, sewing kits and similar items for adventurers and others to use - but as noted these are just stop-gap measures until an item can be seen by the appropriate Crafter. Eventually even the best Crafter will not be able to fix an item simply because too much damage has been done, and a new item needs to be procured. This way PC's are buying minor items to put off having to see a Crafter for repairs constantly, but will still need their services, and a Crafter can't infinitely fix said item, so there are three ways to keep money flowing into the economy (since Crafters, in turn will need the materials for fixing items and to make new ones, even they don't get to hang onto the coins indefinitely).
Even a Mending spell should be limited in how helpful it will be once an item has passed a certain point of wear and tear, although, it would give spellcaster some minor revenue and create competition with Crafters.
I also like the idea that minor items are simply trashed, as repairing them or Mending them will likely prove to be as costly as just buying new. I am all for keeping the economy in flux so PFO doesn't get hampered by an economy out of control as many other MMO's have had happen. Even EvE, which seems the go to comparison, because of isk sellers and people legally selling game time card numbers for isk has suffered some, though it has been almost two years since I logged into that game, and the Devs there may have fixed it. I have high hopes for PFO and this proposed system IMHO will help keep the economy in check, as long as other ways are also introduced.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Personally I prefer games which push 'mundane drudgery' like repairing equipment to the background.
Yes, it is realistic to need to repair equipment... but it is even more realistic for every character to need several hours of sleep around the same time each day. Characters being unavailable while sleeping would be incredibly tedious... so that aspect of realism routinely gets tossed out. Yet other tedious things, like having to constantly click buttons to repair equipment, inexplicably remain in many games.
If the underlying desire is to have economic outlays then that could just be automatic... every day XX% of your total equipment value is deducted from your accumulated gold to reflect ongoing maintenance of your gear. Take out another YY% for food and ZZ% for lodging and you are getting all kinds of realistic compared to many games. If the player actually eats something or has an in-game home then those standard deductions can be waived in place of whatever they are spending on the comparable items... or a character who developed survival skills could gather food and find shelter in the outdoors and could thus reduce or bypass the fees. Conversely, if someone wanted to play be a smith type and develop skill and actually play repairing and improving their equipment the game could allow that... but don't force it on people with no interest. Just quietly deduct a fee and say the character took care of it 'off camera'.