Yes
No. The extra arms specifically can't be used to gain extra attacks.
Yes he can. Natural attacks don't fall under the same restrictions that martial weapons do whose attacks are regulated by BAB.
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Technically yes but you have a few problems.
First, PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Second, your penalties for all of this is going to make you unable to hit almost ANYTHING when you full attack and if you do hit your damage is going to be laughable (only half strength bonus to damage on everything but your primary weapon hit)
Yeah you can do it but I hope you like whiffing air.
@bignorsewolf, that's true but he's not getting any extra attacks from the vestigial arms, they are taking the standard attacks his BaB is allowing. The claws on his real arms are are providing the bonus attacks from the Natural Attack rules.
PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
This is correct, but since you are only using only two actual "weapons", you only need two-weapon fighting.
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Ok, so then here's another dip into this idea...
Since monks don't need to use their hands for their unarmed attacks (as stated in the monk class)... does a monk with 2 claws and a bite attack even need to bother with getting extra arms and all that?
Again, obviously you can't flurry + natural attacks, it states that clearly. But if you opted for TWF (since I'd be dumping flurry for Fuse Style anyway), would it be like kick/kick/claw/claw/bite?
Seems to read that way.
Yes it does work that way but depending on how you build it you could easily be working with as much as a -7 or worse to-hit on most of your attacks.
A better way to build this type of character is to decide what you want the Pc to do and then build that as opposed to just randomly cramming anything that gives extra attacks together.
What are you trying to do?
Technically yes but you have a few problems.
First, PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Second, your penalties for all of this is going to make you unable to hit almost ANYTHING when you full attack and if you do hit your damage is going to be laughable (only half strength bonus to damage on everything but your primary weapon hit)
Yeah you can do it but I hope you like whiffing air.
@bignorsewolf, that's true but he's not getting any extra attacks from the vestigial arms, they are taking the standard attacks his BaB is allowing. The claws on his real arms are are providing the bonus attacks from the Natural Attack rules.
I did not see the vestigial arms part at first. If they can't be used to make the natural attacks then no they can't make attacks. However they could be used to attack with the weapon IIRC.
My last post is correct otherwise.Where is the rule saying PC's can't take monster feats? I know they normally don't take them, but they normally don't qualify either. Once you meet the qualifications you should be able to take the feat.
Vestigial Arm (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
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Technically yes but you have a few problems.
First, PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Second, your penalties for all of this is going to make you unable to hit almost ANYTHING when you full attack and if you do hit your damage is going to be laughable (only half strength bonus to damage on everything but your primary weapon hit)
Yeah you can do it but I hope you like whiffing air.
@bignorsewolf, that's true but he's not getting any extra attacks from the vestigial arms, they are taking the standard attacks his BaB is allowing. The claws on his real arms are are providing the bonus attacks from the Natural Attack rules.
I did not see the vestigial arms part at first. If they can't be used to make the natural attacks then no they can't make attacks. However they could be used to attack with the weapon IIRC.
My last post is correct otherwise.Where is the rule saying PC's can't take monster feats? I know they normally don't take them, but they normally don't qualify either. Once you meet the qualifications you should be able to take the feat.
At the beginning of the Feats entry in the Bestiary (I don't have my books in front of me to quote it) it lays out that these feats are restricted to monsters and PC's are usually forbidden from having them.
@Bignorsewolf, yes the bolded section prevents vestigial arms from granting EXTRA attacks or actions. These arms are not being used for extra attacks. They are just using the same attacks the character is granted because of having a high BaB.
The rules for natural attacks however allow the original arms to make attacks since they are now clawed and get extra attacks with those limbs.
It's smells of Limburger (the stinky kind) but is officially legal for now.
@Bignorsewolf, yes the bolded section prevents vestigial arms from granting EXTRA attacks or actions. These arms are not being used for extra attacks. They are just using the same attacks the character is granted because of having a high BaB.
The rules for natural attacks however allow the original arms to make attacks since they are now clawed and get extra attacks with those limbs.
It's smells of Limburger (the stinky kind) but is officially legal for now.
Nope, its violating how base attacks and weapon attacks interact.If the characters two hands are filled with weapons then the vestigal arms are in fact extra attacks.
Legal but cheesy is using vestigial arms to dual wield greatswords. This is flatly illegal cheese.
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Nope, vestigial arms specifically calls out that it doesn't grant extra attacks. I.E. you're limited to the same number of attacks that you can make without them. No differentiation between iterative or natural here. It's not a matter of how many attacks are made by THOSE arms. In fact, the way its worded is a complete blanket on gaining any extra attacks by using those arms in any fashion, whether to free up regular arms, or to make those attacks themselves.
However.
Monks can attack with their knees, leaving both hands open for claw attacks. Note I say attack and not flurry. So a monk with two weapon fighting could claw/claw/bite without vestigial arms and STILL get his normal iterative attacks via primary knee and offhand knee.
I actually made a build for a halloween single-session campaign based on this concept. Morlock alchemist/barbarian/fighter Level 10. Afterwards, he was flatly banned from ever reappearing in a game.
Monks can attack with their knees, leaving both hands open for claw attacks
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
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The feat specifically calls out working with your hands, not your feet. You're right that you can use your ful bab to kick kick kick to the limits of your BAB, and then claw claw bite (all effectively as offhands with half the strength and at a -5 ) , but it doesn't work with two weapon fighting.
The vestigial arms do not grant extra attacks, but they can wield weapons.
Thus you could.
- Have 2 Vestigial arms each wielding a weapon as per the standard TWF rules
- Have your 2 normal arms making claw attacks as secondary attacks at -5(-2 with multi-attack)
- Have your normal bite attack at -5(-2 with multiattack)
Thus with a BAB of +6, multiattack, TWF, and improved TWF, your attacks would be.
Mainhand Weapon +6/+1
Offhand weapon +6/+1
2 claws +4
1 bite +4
Side note, the rules do not explicitly allow or forbid PCs from taking monster feats, so it is a grey area that amounts to, "Ask your DM"
The vestigial arms do not grant extra attacks, but they can wield weapons.
Thus you could.
- Have 2 Vestigial arms each wielding a weapon as per the standard TWF rules
- Have your 2 normal arms making claw attacks as secondary attacks at -5(-2 with multi-attack)
- Have your normal bite attack at -5(-2 with multiattack)Thus with a BAB of +6, multiattack, TWF, and improved TWF, your attacks would be.
Mainhand Weapon +6/+1
Offhand weapon +6/+1
2 claws +4
1 bite +4Side note, the rules do not explicitly allow or forbid PCs from taking monster feats, so it is a grey area that amounts to, "Ask your DM"
Insert perfectly legal, but very powerful build here.
8 Half-Elf Alchemist(Vivisectionist)/2 Ranger
Str 10
Dex 26 - 15 base +1 level +4 belt +2 racial +4 mutagen
Con 14 - 13 base +1 level
Int 14
Wis 10 - 12 base -2 mutagen
Chr 8
Alternate racial: Dual Minded(+2 will)
Traits: Armor Expert, Indomidable Faith
Ranger bonus feat: Power Attack
Feats: Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, Multiattack, Iron Will
Discoveries: Feral Mutagen, Vestigial Arm x2, Bleeding Attack
Using extract of barkskin and heroism
BAB +8/+2
Equipment: +1 Agile Scimitar, +1 Agile Kukris, Celestial Armor, Cloak of Resist +1, +1 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Handy Haversack
HP: 84 (Alchmist FC bonus all goes to HP)
AC:33 10 +9 armor +8 dex +2 Ring +2 NA Mutagen +3 NA Barkskin
Fort:+14 Ref:+20 Will:+10
Main hand +1 Agile Scimitar +19/+14 = +8 base +8 dex +1 enhancement +2 heroism
Off Hand +1 Agile Kukri +19/+14 = +8 base +8 dex +1 enhancement +2
2 Claws +17 +8 base +8 dex +1 enhancement +2 heroism -2 secondary attack
1 Bite +17 +8 base +8 dex +1 enhancement +2 heroism -2 secondary attack
Mainhand Damage 1d6 + 8 dex + 1 enhance = 12.5 -> 14.3 with crits
Offhand Damage 1d4 + 4 dex + 1 enhance = 7.5 -> 8.625 with crits
Claw Damage 1d6 + 4 dex +1 enhance = 8.5 -> 8.9 with crits
Bite Damage 1d8 + 4 dex +1 enhahce = 9.5 -> 10.0 with crits
Against AC 24, you are looking at 50.5 DPR, not bad for a hybrid, but a Fighter can easily do 65 DPR or more.
Now, if you get a flank against your favored enemy, your DPR is 163.8.
Technically yes but you have a few problems.
First, PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Second, your penalties for all of this is going to make you unable to hit almost ANYTHING when you full attack and if you do hit your damage is going to be laughable (only half strength bonus to damage on everything but your primary weapon hit)
Yeah you can do it but I hope you like whiffing air.
@bignorsewolf, that's true but he's not getting any extra attacks from the vestigial arms, they are taking the standard attacks his BaB is allowing. The claws on his real arms are are providing the bonus attacks from the Natural Attack rules.
I did not see the vestigial arms part at first. If they can't be used to make the natural attacks then no they can't make attacks. However they could be used to attack with the weapon IIRC.
My last post is correct otherwise.Where is the rule saying PC's can't take monster feats? I know they normally don't take them, but they normally don't qualify either. Once you meet the qualifications you should be able to take the feat.
At the beginning of the Feats entry in the Bestiary (I don't have my books in front of me to quote it) it lays out that these feats are restricted to monsters and PC's are usually forbidden from having them.
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them
(particularly Craft Construct).
This means that it works as I said earlier. It does not mean they are restricted.
Technically yes but you have a few problems.
First, PC's do not qualify for Monster only feats so you can't take Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Second, your penalties for all of this is going to make you unable to hit almost ANYTHING when you full attack and if you do hit your damage is going to be laughable (only half strength bonus to damage on everything but your primary weapon hit)
Yeah you can do it but I hope you like whiffing air.
@bignorsewolf, that's true but he's not getting any extra attacks from the vestigial arms, they are taking the standard attacks his BaB is allowing. The claws on his real arms are are providing the bonus attacks from the Natural Attack rules.
I did not see the vestigial arms part at first. If they can't be used to make the natural attacks then no they can't make attacks. However they could be used to attack with the weapon IIRC.
My last post is correct otherwise.Where is the rule saying PC's can't take monster feats? I know they normally don't take them, but they normally don't qualify either. Once you meet the qualifications you should be able to take the feat.
At the beginning of the Feats entry in the Bestiary (I don't have my books in front of me to quote it) it lays out that these feats are restricted to monsters and PC's are usually forbidden from having them.
This means that it works as I said earlier. It does not mean they are restricted.Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them
(particularly Craft Construct).
The keyword in there is might. It never explicity states that players can take monster feats they qualify for, and that gives a DM just enough levarage to say no if they don't want players having monster feats.