I don't know why it's never been discussed, but Archery really is like magic in the d20 system. Has anyone ever notice that when someone on these boards talks about a powerful fighter, a majority of the time it's an archer?
Archery uses Dexterity to hit, same stat used for dodging and for all of the feats. Archery is ranged, meaning one can shoot an enemy before it reaches them. Although using a ranged weapon in melee provokes an attack of opportunity, one usually has teammates to keep enemies from reaching them, but one can five foot step most times out of reach and shoot (unless the enemy specifically has the step up feat). I think there are also feats that prevent AoOs as well but I don't know. Majority of fights take place within the range of the bow before distance starts to affect accuracy. Shooting an arrow 300 feet is apparently no harder than swinging a club at someone within the d20 system. Anyone who cares can eventually shoot an arrow per second over a hundred feet with amazing accuracy. Arrows never need to arch, so shooting indoors or in caves is A-Okay.
Ridiculous and unrealistic? Yes, but whatever it's a game where it only takes 13 dexterity to knock an arrow out of the sky. I mean, these arrows are moving slow enough for the targets to dodge them.
These are not some special class ability, anyone with the feats, BAB, and Dexterity can do it.
But remember, only archery can be this mundanely magical. So don't hope to wield a giant's sword without taking a special Barbarian class for it.
You don't dodge arrows. You make yourself difficult to aim at.
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And how does one use their dexterity to do this if not actively trying to dodge the arrow? I doubt the Dex bonus represents hiding one's self in camouflage, are they using something to deflect the oncoming projectile?
Well, actually, it's more like all combat in the game is mundanely magical. If by "mundanely magical" you mean fantastical and unrealistic. The game simulates combat, it does not replicate it, and melee combat in the game is as inherently filled with fantastical and unrealistic elements as is ranged combat.
If you have two guys with swords in real life, generally speaking the guy who could swing first and best killed the other guy with the first blow. There wasn't much dodging or weaving to it. Hardly anybody in the history of sword warfare has deflected countless blow after blow from his enemy, much less disarmed them, turned the blow aside, etc. I'm not saying there haven't been amazing swordsmen - there have been. But most of their kills were made with a single blow in the first few seconds of the combat.
There have also been, and still are, amazing archers in the world. They have come about as close to doing the things in these games as their melee counterparts have.
You don't dodge arrows. You make yourself difficult to aim at....
And how does one use their dexterity to do this if not actively trying to dodge the arrow? I doubt the Dex bonus represents hiding one's self in camouflage, are they using something to deflect the oncoming projectile?
I think there's a difference in an arrow being dodged and the archer being "juked" (as we like to say in my circle of friends/acquaintances). To be juked is akin to playing a sport such as basketball or soccer, and while you are attempting to take the ball, the other player makes his movement momentarily erratic to throw you off until you commit to an action, wherein he exploits your momentum and bypasses you. One could compare this to feinting, but in this context, I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.
If all of your AC above 10 comes from Dex and you avoid being hit, I don't think that has to mean that you dodged it at the last second. It's an abstraction of how light on your feet you are, and if they failed the attack roll, it just means they didn't do so great on the attempt.
Most of what you're saying is valid though, if not already well-known and accepted. One of those unstated understandings.
The archers shooting already know how to adjust for arrow drop, wind, and movement of their targets is all. We don't need to make it anymore complex than that.
archers have to deal with cover, concealment, penalties for shooting into melee, provoking AoOs with every attack, the inability to make AoO's, arrow deflecton, arrow catching shields, and the permanent threat of wind wall making you pointless. it takes at least 6 feats to be just on par with "hitting a guy with a club", feats that could be used making a build that dual wields clubs and gets as many/more attacks than said bow build.
You don't dodge arrows. You make yourself difficult to aim at.
im pretty sure that if your "dodge" bonus to Ac makes your Ac high enough that youre missed... that you could be said to have "dodged" it.
Its really no more magical than
Surviving being hit with dragon fire
Clawing your way out of the intestines of a monster that ATE YOU with just a dagger
Surviving a 200 foot fall
lifting a wagon over your head
Jogging across an entire country before lunch
outrunning a horse
swimming through a vortex in a whirlpool
having a 20 foot ball of fire in a 10 foot room.. and getting missed.
The fantasy part doesn't just apply to the magic users.
Its really no more magical than
Surviving being hit with dragon fire
Clawing your way out of the intestines of a monster that ATE YOU with just a dagger
Surviving a 200 foot fall
lifting a wagon over your head
Jogging across an entire country before lunch
outrunning a horse
swimming through a vortex in a whirlpool
having a 20 foot ball of fire in a 10 foot room.. and getting missed.
The fantasy part doesn't just apply to the magic users.
All good points, and it brings up something that I've been thinking about for a while now. Wziards, clerics, etc, all get the hype as being the magical classes; fighter, I often hear, are boring because they have no magic. They're "mundane," or "sidekicks." But really, in a fantasy setting, all the PC classes are magic users to a certain extent. In most setting, magic drenches the world; the obvious magic users aren't the only ones to take advantage of this. Some of the example above demonstrate how the mundane classes also use the magic of the world to accomplish their goals.
You're telling me Wolf that we have been playing a game that is made up?!
You're telling me Wolf that we have been playing a game that is made up?!
What?!? Ermm.. ahh no.. just that we live in ahh uhm.. a very fantastical and wondrous world where amazing things happen to people.
You're telling me Wolf that we have been playing a game that is made up?!What?!? Ermm.. ahh no.. just that we live in ahh uhm.. a very fantastical and wondrous world where amazing things happen to people.
Okay you scared me for a second.
I was mostly getting at, that compared to dual wielding or using a 2 handed sword, it's rather cheap and very accessible. The only way I can see someone getting the same amount of attacks in melee is with high dex, combat reflexes, and a bunch of characters actually provoking attacks of opportunity.
Many of the "issues" with archers hardly show up in actual play.