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So we finally have a good-aligned god of darkness now(and madness, and repose, and the moon!). This is incredibly awesome, fact. But how best to get that awesome beyond the borders of Tien Xia?
(this thread could easily apply to any of the new gods introduced via Tien Xia as well if anyone has any ideas, I'm just totally playing favorites right now)
Running with the notion that the various gods are seen with different names and faces in different regions of the world, sometimes even within the Inner Sea Region(Shimye-Magalla for example), Tsukiyo and the rest could be ported over as possibly lesser known deities woven into the established mythology of the Big 20. But what's the best fit?
What little we know about Tsukiyo paints him a bit like Osiris, and as a bit of a romantic figure. Couple that with the madness bit and his LG-ness and things can get really interesting. Perhaps his wife the Sun Empress is seen as an aspect of Sarenrae, which puts him in a peculiar position amongst that god's faithful. Or maybe the romantic figure angle could be played up and make him some sort of associate, if not a consort, of Shelyn. That angle could possibly put him in the position of being a much healthier alternative to Naderi amongst the Inner Sea Region's mopey/longing youth. Less moody goth, more perky goth maybe, but keeping a good dose of melancholy. Parents might worry about all the black but at least they can be trusted around knives.
The visuals that can be evoked by an Inner Sea Region take on Tsukiyo are all over the place. If Tsukiyo is introduced to the region via Taldor, maybe he's seen as this gloriously over-the-top endless masquerade figure, constantly shifting masks and moods with the phases of hte moon. Through Jalmeray he could be this exotic, possibly heavily misinterpreted mystical figure whose true domains and myths are scattershot except amongst his actual priests.
Kind of liking the masquerade idea, but maybe with shifting ethnicities or races as well.
Going with the Darkness element, I'd really love to get this guy into the Mwangi Expanse somehow, but an organic entry point for his worship isn't jumping out at me. Along those same lines, I'd LOVE to see cults dedicated to this guy spring up in Nidal, and possibly get linked in some way to Desna(possibly tying his madness to her dreams?).
(and then there's the maybe-sorta angle to tie him with the similarly named Azata Lord from the first Bestiary, even if it isn't Golarion canon...)
Anyone have any ideas on how to bring him(or the others) over and expand on their mythology?
Why change him? Couldn't he just spread with pilgrims and trade?
Why not just bring him as is? Followers take their gods with them. See Sarenrae.
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The same reasons the Inner Sea Big 20 are seen differently in Tien Xia. They gain momentum beyond their original worshippers and are seen through very different eyes. (Shimye-Magalla again, as well as the very different views of Sarenrae between the mainstream and the "old timey" Dawncult, all of the Big 20 present in Tien Xia with the exception of Irori)
There's also the matter of there not actually being a lot known about Tsukiyo, hense the desire to expand and flesh out his mythology.
Also, world/mythbuilding is fun.
Hmmm this god you speak of sounds interesting, perhaps I may have to actually take a look at the Dragon Empires book you speak of. If I do, I know most of my players will be thrilled that I might add something that seems oriental to my game.
Shelyn Asia is pretty much the same as Shelyn Europe/Africa (As an example).
Do you see a distinction between being a god of darkness and being a god of the night/moon?
More towards your OP. If he was a recent import he might not have had a chance to gain some local flavor. For something quick and dirty just mention what classes or (Europe/Africa) professions would be keen on him and switch out his title for some local sounding and you're set.
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One has to wonder about the exact nature of Tsukiyo's madness. He's LG, so it's most likely relatively benign by fantasyland standards. Probably ties into the idea of lunacy, natch. Could it just be a shifting from lighter to darker moods or something like divine, inspired madness(which might be fitting for artist types, but I think that falls outside his focus)?
Wonder if any of that leads to him not being seen as a source of stability even with his focus on Law. It would make him easier to paint as a disruptive element in Nidal, not that they need much of an excuse there.
Shelyn Asia is pretty much the same as Shelyn Europe/Africa (As an example).
Do you see a distinction between being a god of darkness and being a god of the night/moon?
Shelyn has a Tien Xia-specific title, a Tien Xian view, associations with specific elements of Tien Xian culture, and Tien Xian centers of worship. Also, Abadar and Desna are viewed as very Tien-Xian looking deities. That's the sort of thing I'm looking for bringing Tsukiyo over. How do people in the ISR see him? How do they relate to him? How is he relevant to their lives and their cultures?
I'd see a difference between a god of darkness and a god of the night/moon if they were explicitly defined as being so, but Tsukiyo is a god of darkness AND the night/moon. What I'm looking for is how that package is viewed in the Inner Sea Region. The thing is we actually don't have a lot to go off of since there actually isn't that much known about him as far as what's published.
Right now, he doesn't have the richly developed mythos the Big 20 have. This is about finding one for him, one that integrates him both with his home Big 20 and fits him in nicely with the ISR Big 20.
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We see it in real-world religions all the time; the God(s) take on the aspect of their worshipers. That is to say, how come Jesus looks Causcasian in all my picture Bibles? Why do the Mormons have an extra set of Scriptures (hint: new-world Jesus)? This is not to pick on any one religion, you understand; these are examples, there are countless more. Every culture sees divinity through the lenses of cultural bias.
How much more so would this be in a world where there is absolutely NO doubt whatsoever about the existence of gods? Shelyn is an undeniable fact of Golarion, or at least is a more provable divinity with recordable and duplicable effects on the world. This does not, however, change the fact that Tian Xians will look at Shelyn through a glass darkly, as will everyone else. Unless Shelyn floats in from wherever on a cloud of singing rose-petals and hands her high priest a book in full view of the congregation and says "Do it this way, or I'll curse you with cooties!" her worshipers in a given area will, in time, develop divergent practices from other churches on the face of Golarion. This is okay; as long as the basic doctrinal points are observed all should be well. Maybe they have slightly different holy days, or eat quail instead of giraffe on St. Primpmas' day.
I have always assumed that the gods are affected by massive changes in what their worshipers believe, and how quickly those changes come about. Shelyn could eventually develop into, say, a God with a bigger focus on defending beauty in battle over time if her worshipers began to emphasize that aspect. Golarions gods do evolve, after all, Shelyn with her mother's death and her brother with his travels to the bad parts of the Void. No god would tolerate an extreme perversion of their portfolio; Shelyn will not become the "sexy" version of Zon-Kuthon. That would be anathema (presumably). But slow changes adhering to basic tenets while developing new aspects of those tenets or emphasizing different virtues should be acceptable. They may also lead to schism in the church (one need look no farther [or further] than out of one's window to see how this happens in the real world) leading to interesting theological questions and RP opportunities. How would Shelyn react when rival branches of the faith from different cultures go to war, Paladin vs. Paladin? Maybe they wouldn't; seems like she'd shut that down pretty fast. But who knows, do what seems cool for you.
Tsukiyo as viewed through "western" minds, that could be cool. Really cool. How different the cultural viewpoints are is up to you; I suggest not having two many differences, just enough to emphasize cultural drift. In a world where the Gods can and will show up for afternoon tea, "good" gods will likely nip schism in the buds, "evil" gods...maybe, maybe not.
I would imagine that if we assume (not always a wise thing...)that Tian Xian culture is "shame-based", with an emphasis on community, versus a "western" cultural bias towards individuality and personal achievement, that Tsukiyo would have individual worshipers emphasizing his portfolio of spirits, spreading the doctrine that not all spirits are evil, promoting ancestor veneration, and maybe with a very small scattered sect of druids emphasizing the spirits in all things and working in harmony with nature to limit despoiling natural places and to aid in achieving harmony with nature. Being a moon god with the darkness and madness domains as well as an LG god, emphasis is placed on nonconformity and individualism used as tools to help the community by thinking outside of the box as well as promoting a respect for those who do not think the same way as others do. Be good while being yourself may or may not be a tenet. Some of the things that lurk in the darkness are friendly to man, and bump back against less benevolent creatures of the night. Good aligned lycanthropes likely gravitate towards Tsukiyo in both Tian Xia and Avistan.
Long post. Hope this gives some ideas.
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Long post. Hope this gives some ideas.
It does!
I'm not sure how much or even if the emphasis on conformity is present in Tien-Xia, or even just parts of it, but that kind of values dissonance is well worth mining. Like say those societal norms may emphasize the Spirits aspect of that deity over Darkness* and especially Madness. Then over in parts of the Inner Sea Region where the need for conformity is lessened, the masks come off and those elements pushed a bit to the side in Tien-Xia come out in full force. Perhaps Tien-Xian followers of Tsukiyo may not find their ISR counterparts shameful, but Tiens in general might?
*Though Darkness may not even be much of a norm-breaker in Tien-Xia, especially considering that it kind of makes Tsukiyo half of a yin-yang relationship with Shizuru. Madness on the other hand...that's a tougher sell.
Mulling over some ways to play with the Sarenrae/Shizuru overlap. Given social norms in Qadira relating to Sarenrae, Tsukiyo might actually be seen as one of many gods subordinate to her. If Taldans did carry over a more "high noble" figure for Tsukiyo, that could lead to another interesting point of contention between them and Qadira considering the disdain those in power in Taldor have for Sarenrae.
edit-Playing off that a bit more, but if Tsukiyo was a generaly accepted deity in Taldor, then you could have Sarenraens and others in that nation possibly viewing their goddess' relation with him being a reverse of the one in Qadira, placing their faith and themselves under what protection that would offer. Could be a way to play with the divide in values between those two cultures some more, by way of a Tien catalyst.
I approve of this idea, but I'm currently too tired to give proper feedback in any manner. Though now that I think of it actually, Tsukiyo would fit in well with Sarenrae and Desna in the Inner Sea. They could work as a trio of gods of the sky, Tsukiyo as the god of the moon, Sarenrae as the deity of the sun and Desna as the one of stars. Gozreh could be added to the picture since he/she IS still the actual deity of the skies (and seas) so yeah.
Why is having a LG god of Darkness and Madness so important?
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Gorbacz beat me to the joke :)
I hope you're just joking in a friendly manner and not attempting to troll just because some people don't agree with you.
Then again, knowing you, it's most likely the former anyway :U
Is anyone else surprised the bit of a Greek turn paizo did with with him and Shizuru? I have to admit I was.
Mikaze:
I would simply introduce the god in simplest realistic turns possible: the PCs in some suitable recurring city (probably large one like Absalom) find a small temple dedicated to Tsukiyo. Run by a handful of Tien who've come over to the Inner Sea for their own reasons; no more than a dozen people acknowledge the god in the city, and the PCs might (unless they are familiar with Tsukiyo) assume he's some form of chaotic god when they hear that he controls madness and darkness. Even more so when strange foreign folk that don't speak common very well insist on his virtues.
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The reason we put in some "variant information" on the six deities of the Dragon Empires gazetteer who also have roles in the Inner Sea region is because those six ARE cross-cultural deities. Thus, they needed some stuff to "regionalize" them a bit.
This isn't necessary for non-common deities—aka, any other deity. If you brought Cayden Cailean over to Tian-Xia, his themes and such wouldn't change much at all—he'd be a foreign religion whose teachings would be "imported" from the west.
Likewise, any of the "new" 16 deities of the Dragon Empires. Bring any of these religions into the Inner Sea region and they're "foreign religions," and thus should NOT be dramatically altered at all. Just plug and play Tsukiyo into the Inner Sea region and you're good to go!
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Doesn't that lock out a lot of non-Tien concepts though? As far as good gods of darkness go, Tsukiyo's the only game in town, and what little we know about him is pretty culturally specific to Tien-Xia.
With some fleshing out, he could be more relevant to people from other cultures, enabling concepts like a long tradition of dark holy warriors in the Mwangi Expanse or Nidalese reformists who are focused on purifying the darkness of their homeland rather than driving it out. Right now though there's so little known about him and what he's about that it's hard to make those fit.
Kinda partial to him being called The Lunatic Prince in the Inner Sea Region now
I think what Mikaze is getting at makes sense, since Desna (for example, pretty sure she isn't the only one) is seen differently from her normal interpretations as well, like the Ulfen seeing her as a Human instead of an Elf and such, if I recall right.
That is the thing, he is a Tien concept. He is not spread outside of tien yet. Some gods like Adabr are old, damned old most likely pre-dateing the tien people. It makes sense he would be known there he is The god of civilization.
I would expect some gods such as Desna,Lamashtu and Pharasma to be there for the same reason. They are gods of concepts not unique to the west and older then man. Others could spread, Iroi is not a native of the inner sea for examples. And he is far from the only "big" 20 that is not native.
Those "new" gods have concepts that are well odd within the inner sea and have simply never taken root. If you are saying this god is pretty much rooted in Tien-Xia culture it is unlikely it would spread much past it.
In the inner sea is "nitch" has been filled domain wise. what are his portfolios and do they translate to the inner sea?
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I think what Mikaze is getting at makes sense, since Desna (for example, pretty sure she isn't the only one) is seen differently from her normal interpretations as well, like the Ulfen seeing her as a Human instead of an Elf and such, if I recall right.
Ah most gods do that really. Desna pre-dates human. Her current form much like Pharasma's is highly unlikely to be one she used before.
Seeker, nothing would stop Tsukiyo from having followers spreading his word in the Inner Sea. Sure, he is a primarily Tian deity, but doesn't mean he CANNOT have a small amount of followers on the Inner Sea area as well. And really, in Mikaze's own game, she can always have his church being more widespread and better known, just like I can have a race that is basically all-female demi-Humans (as in, almost Human) ALMOST cured of the Minotaur curse thrown at them by Lamashtu (they'd just be Iblydosian Humans if they were fully cured) so yeah.
I said there was no reason he couldn't be used as is in the like 2nd post. However he is not a major non-tien concept like the others I listed. The only way you will get a different view is if he concepts are in both cultures.
So what are his portfolios? Not his domains but what is his area's of control?
Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.
Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.
Specifically he's the god of the Jade, the Moon, and Spirits.
Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.Specifically he's the god of the Jade, the Moon, and Spirits.
Specifically, those are his "areas of concern". His domains are Darkness, Good, Law, Madness, and Repose. I was not being all-encompassing in my comment. I was just focusing on something that might help the OP.
Just because Tsukiyo's domains are not listed in his areas of of concern does not mean that he is not a god of those domains. It only makes sense that he is indeed concerned with good, law, and madness; just not in ways that do not interact with jade, the moon, and spirits. One could also surmise that Tsukiyo does not care about those domains as much as darkness or the moon, but he does still care about them or they would not be listed as his domains.
Having a subculture that emphasizes a particular aspect or facet of a deity is one way of helping the OP find a solution to his dilemma and I was just pointing one possible solution out.
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Doesn't that lock out a lot of non-Tien concepts though? As far as good gods of darkness go, Tsukiyo's the only game in town, and what little we know about him is pretty culturally specific to Tien-Xia.
With some fleshing out, he could be more relevant to people from other cultures, enabling concepts like a long tradition of dark holy warriors in the Mwangi Expanse or Nidalese reformists who are focused on purifying the darkness of their homeland rather than driving it out. Right now though there's so little known about him and what he's about that it's hard to make those fit.
Kinda partial to him being called The Lunatic Prince in the Inner Sea Region now
If you want to rebuild his religion in the same way we rebuitl/reflavored religions like Desna for the Dragon Empires... I'm just saying that implies that Tsukiyo should become one of the primary deities in your Inner Sea region. That's a much more significant change to the Inner Sea than merely having a few Tsukiyo worshipers in the area who traveled to the Inner Sea from Tian Xia.
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Note that there may also be a CG Azata 'Empyreal Lord' named Tsukiyomi, Prince of the Moon, according to Bestiary p. 23. If this figure is indeed an Empyreal Lord, he/she may be able to grant Clerics the Darkness domain.
The advantage of the Azata Lords on p. 23 and the Archon Lords on p. 18 is that you get to assign their Domains (obviously the Azata Lords all have Chaos and Good, and the Archon Lords Law and Good, leaving you only two others to assign, since Empyreal Lords only grant four domains).
A fair number of them, based on just a name and short title, are hugely evocative.
Cocidus, the Hawk-Keeper? (A paladin archetype that replaces the mount/holy weapon option with a celestial eagle companion, and adds some summon monster (eagle/hawks only) to their spell list could be cool!)
Erlang Shen, the All-Seeing. Hors, the Freezing Sun. Ogoun of Fire and Iron. Cernunnos, the Stag Lord. Connla, the Wolfhound's Son. Muyingwa, the Seed-Thrower. Ebeji, the Twins. All intriguing seeds for ideas.
Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.Specifically he's the god of the Jade, the Moon, and Spirits.
TY, the op kept talking about what his domains were but not what he was a god of. So he is the god of Jade( not a big thing in the inner sea) the moon and spirits.
So the Op would ignore 1 of his 3 area's and want to build around the other two. The moon and spirits( not big in the inner sea). Seems to be just making him a moon god might be massive change.The Op seems to be rebuilding around domains and not what the god is. So ignoring domains what does the write up say the god is about?
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If you want to rebuild his religion in the same way we rebuitl/reflavored religions like Desna for the Dragon Empires... I'm just saying that implies that Tsukiyo should become one of the primary deities in your Inner Sea region. That's a much more significant change to the Inner Sea than merely having a few Tsukiyo worshipers in the area who traveled to the Inner Sea from Tian Xia.
That's what this whole thread was meant to be about really: Trying to find ways to mesh him in with the ISR and make him more widely available and relevant to more cultures while having it work as naturally as possible. Especially since he's literally our only canonical option for good gods of darkness.
Tsukiyo is all we have, so I'd rather build him up rather than dangle him out of reach for the majority of players.
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Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.Specifically he's the god of the Jade, the Moon, and Spirits.TY, the op kept talking about what his domains were but not what he was a god of. So he is the god of Jade( not a big thing in the inner sea) the moon and spirits.
So the Op would ignore 1 of his 3 area's and want to build around the other two. The moon and spirits( not big in the inner sea). Seems to be just making him a moon god might be massive change.The Op seems to be rebuilding around domains and not what the god is. So ignoring domains what does the write up say the god is about?
"The OP" would like to note that several canonical sects and subcultures do that exact thing: de-emphasize aspects of their deities. The hardline Dawncult not being big on mercy for just one example.
And the moon and spirits are highly relevant to many ISR cultures. Shoanti(particularly the Lyrune-Quah) and Varisians just for starters.
Besides, any good-aligned god that would ignore a region and potential worshippers simply because a certain type of rock isn't all that common or important there probably isn't really worthy of being called good.
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Note that there may also be a CG Azata 'Empyreal Lord' named Tsukiyomi, Prince of the Moon, according to Bestiary p. 23. If this figure is indeed an Empyreal Lord, he/she may be able to grant Clerics the Darkness domain.
The advantage of the Azata Lords on p. 23 and the Archon Lords on p. 18 is that you get to assign their Domains (obviously the Azata Lords all have Chaos and Good, and the Archon Lords Law and Good, leaving you only two others to assign, since Empyreal Lords only grant four domains).
A fair number of them, based on just a name and short title, are hugely evocative.
Cocidus, the Hawk-Keeper? (A paladin archetype that replaces the mount/holy weapon option with a celestial eagle companion, and adds some summon monster (eagle/hawks only) to their spell list could be cool!)
Erlang Shen, the All-Seeing. Hors, the Freezing Sun. Ogoun of Fire and Iron. Cernunnos, the Stag Lord. Connla, the Wolfhound's Son. Muyingwa, the Seed-Thrower. Ebeji, the Twins. All intriguing seeds for ideas.
Yeah, I've loved mining those guys as a GM. They've been mentioned as not being Golarion canon, but they're still great evocative names. I've only been able to use them as a player once, while building the belief system for my Shoanti half-orc.
Tsukiyo made me raise my eyebrows when I first saw his name and lawful alignment too, because I did remember Tsukiyomi(also the original name of Harle from Chrono Cross, huh). Kind of like the notion of Tsukiyo and Tsukiyomi both being aspects of the same being now, or both of them being halves of what was once one being before his death and rebirth. Dual-identity could play into the Madness angle maybe. Certainly wouldn't combine the two mechanically for their worshippers, but an interesting mythos could possibly be built out of that.
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Being a LG god of madness, the moon, darkness and spirits, I could easily see Tsukiyo's faith and worship being very influential with - and even being introduced to the Inner Sea region by - good and lawful -aligned lycanthropes.
Yeah, lycanthropes been the elephant in the living room for me. :) It could certainly play into the madness aspect as well though. I'm not all that in-the-know about lycanthrope history in the ISR beyond Varisia. Don't know if there have been any notes on any cultural migrations with those types, but they seem good candidates towards whom Tsukiyo could spontaneously make himself known. Appearing to his chosen in their fever dreams, etc.
Hm... Tsukiyo will work very well for my Shadow caster Envy specialist (counter spell focused) wizard. Now just to figure out a way to make the influence make sense. I'm seeing traveling merchant parents.
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I'd figure Tsukyo would catch on pretty easy with traditional Varisian caravanin' folk, especially given the importance of spirits in their culture.
Thinking about what Oracle angles can be taken with Tsukiyo too. Just really liking the idea of some Mwangi oracle in great need calling upon spirits for aid in the dead of night and abandoning herself to their benign, though frightening, influence. Tsukiyo's a good all-in-one package for that sort of character.
Then there's all the ideas to be had with paladins of Tsukiyo...
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Since my players and I got our paws on the book, we've fallen in love with Tian Xia and its gods (to the point that I've been convinced to rejig an upcoming Savage Tide campaign and set it in Tian Xia rather than Sargava/Mwangi!), and I agree that Tsukiyo makes an absolutely awesome addition to the LG gods.
My player is making a LG tengu cleric of Tsukiyo with the Law (Archon) and Madness domains. He's a fortune teller. He sees the past, present, and future in the phases of the moon, and his "touch of madness" ability is meant to represent him showing every single possibile outcome of a creature's actions to them at once (the overload of information causing the penalty). He does this with the desire of making people see the "light", so to speak, through the darkness all around them. To take the right path in life.
These kind of concepts aren't inherently "Asian", and would very easily suit a Varisian Harrower or Shoanti tribesman, among others!
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My player is making a LG tengu cleric of Tsukiyo with the Law (Archon) and Madness domains. He's a fortune teller. He sees the past, present, and future in the phases of the moon, and his "touch of madness" ability is meant to represent him showing every single possibile outcome of a creature's actions to them at once (the overload of information causing the penalty). He does this with the desire of making people see the "light", so to speak, through the darkness all around them. To take the right path in life.
Now that is a really fun take on the madness element. A deity with multiple aspects(moon phases) making others face their own... Yeah, Harrowers could be all over that approach.
*cough* NG Tian-Min Inquisitor who follows Tsukiyo. Moon subdomain. Flavored as a miko, primarily fighting with a longbow.
...Punishes enemies in the name of the Moon. >_>
*FLEES*
D:<
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Aforementioned player and I were discussing Tsukiyo last night in an attempt to flesh out his character. Here's the ideas we came up with to make his domains, focuses, and alignment all match up, and also give his priests some roles in the world.
- In some ways, he literally represents the moon and night-time, while Shizuru represents the sun and day-time. Note the separation between Tsukiyo and Groetus, and Shizuru and Sarenrae. Tsukiyo and Shizuru represent (are?) the celestial bodies themselves. However, Sarenrae simply uses the light of the sun. Groetus, meanwhile... well... y'know.
- Jade was considered the "imperial gem" in Ancient China. I theorised that while Shizuru represents the ancestral side of leadership (being divinely ordained with the right to rule and so forth), Tsukiyo has mastery of the more ceremonial side of rule. His priests would be called upon to orchestrate coronations and to make sure that all proper rituals and regulations were upheld. Similarly, tying that in with his rebirth role, he represents the procession of one ruler to another, one dynasty to another. As one rule dies, a new one rises in its place in an eternal cycle. Interrupting the cycle is a very very bad thing. They would be extremely opposed to things like coups and illegitimate rulers and whatnot, because you're breaking the cycle of a dynasty.
- Change would be a big thing with him. This includes the physical, like lycanthropes and other shapeshifters, but also mental/spiritual, growing up and peacefully letting the ignorance of your youth fade into the background.
- He's actually acting as a middleman in Tian Xia with souls that reincarnate. Normally when a soul dies it goes off to the Boneyard and is dealt with by Pharasma and her crew. However, Tsukiyo believes that the truly good souls that lead a life of balance and enlightenment are what's needed in this world to lead it against evil. So he grabs the soul when they die before they head off to the next life and tosses them back in for another round; he probably gained this ability after his own death and reincarnation cycle. This probably grates on Pharasma something fierce, because he's sitting there glibly ruining her paperwork and messing up the order of things. Likewise, inevitables would probably have a problem with samsaran and the like as well. However, so long as the samsaran are acting in accordance to their god's wishes, they have no ability to strike against them; bit hard to go against a god, after all. However, if they stray from the path that Tsukiyo has set out for them... well, let's just say that they'd best watch their backs.
- He generally walks the fine line between genius and insanity. His madness is rather benign, representing enlightenment and creativity... but enlightenment is the state when you know everything, and yet realise you know nothing. :)
I think it's easy enough to just say that worship of Tsukiyo (in Avistan/Garund) has just caught on like wild fire after being 'imported' from Tian, either from local travellers returning from Tian lands, or Tian travellers bringing his worship to the West. His travellers don't have to get into all aspects of the god, they will likely focus on a few and carry their own agenda along with them in other regards... Nobody really has to get into ALL aspects of a God they worship in the first place, as long as they have some point of connection and don't stray too far from what the God is about. Alot of real-world Westerners are into Tibetan Buddhism, or Zen, or any other religion, in ways that those who originally followed those religions where they came from honestly just weren't like, so I would see the situation similarly... Plenty of room to imagine how Avistani/Garundi worshippers of him may differ from his original worshippers in Tian.
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Aforementioned player and I were discussing Tsukiyo last night in an attempt to flesh out his character. Here's the ideas we came up with to make his domains, focuses, and alignment all match up, and also give his priests some roles in the world.
Thank you! This is exactly the sort of development fro Tsukiyo I was hoping for. :D
I really like the idea of tying him into the importance of "proper" succession, as a reminder to a faithful ruler of their temporary place in a hopefully permanent line and their role in it. Love the balance of stability and change that presents for power structures and cultures to build upon.
And you raise some good questions about just how Samsarans are viewed by Pharasma. Reincarnation cycles are an option she takes sometimes, but do the Samsarans get a special deal and bypass her Boneyard via Tsukiyo?
Like the genius/insanity notion as well. That combined with the balance of stability and change you suggested leads to some neat potential mindsets and cultural outlooks for his followers.
Alot of real-world Westerners are into Tibetan Buddhism, or Zen, or any other religion, in ways that those who originally followed those religions where they came from honestly just weren't like, so I would see the situation similarly... Plenty of room to imagine how Avistani/Garundi worshippers of him may differ from his original worshippers in Tian.
That's a very good comparison. Funny enough, Mass Effect did the same thing with the same religion, except with aliens adopting it.
You can see a bit of it going the other way in the real world as well, where Christianity in Japan takes on a lot of Buddhist and Shinto aspects.(not even touching on anime Catholicism, which is a whole different planet unto itself).
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First, Good show, Mikaze, bringing Zwara into all this.
Second, Alice's deliberations are totally awesome.
My take is that Tsukiyo could work well with Ragathiel. Here's an old post on my take on Ragathiel:
I don't know. Sure, he's a five-winged general of a bunch of heroes, but he's also the Angel of Vengeance, and his father is Dispater. I think there's enough space for an emo infiltrator in that backstory. ANYONE with a Luke-I-am-your-father backstory or who has been dragged through the mud at some point would really be welcome under Ragathiel.
After all, which deity did Van Helsing or Preacher venerate? Heck, Golarion has Iomedae's Low Templars, and they're worse.
PS: Just giving Ragathiel some more thought. He's known as a glorious angel general of heroes, but from the point of view of the other gods, he's really just an upstart punk with daddy issues. I mean, vengeance? Vengeance isn't LG, justice is. Yes, paladins destroy people who've been bad, but not to get back at them. Calistria's the main vengeance goddess.
So now I'm in total agreement that Ragathiel is a perfectly appropriate patron of going into the sewers, kicking evil's teeth in, making their toadies cry and blubber the truth, then going back to the shadows to sulk. Golarion needs a deity of shifty LG shadow operation, and Ragathiel is all over that. Heck, now I want to run a story arc describing the struggle between Asmodeus' right hand man and his rebel son.
And that's not a masterwork bastard sword. That's a katana.
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To be honest, I love the different tones that relationship could take in different areas. In Varisia, among the caravans he might be a fanciful figure that's sort of a satellite around Desna's mythos. In Nidal, they could be seen as true equals working their magic on two fronts by the Nidalese Underground.
My take is that Tsukiyo could work well with Ragathiel. Here's an old post on my take on Ragathiel:
Thanks for reminding me why I love the idea of Ragathiel(and his heritage!) I really hope when he finally gets art it lives up to that image. :)
And heh, yeah, I've wanted a Mwangi character with Zwara as her theme ever since I first heard that song. :)
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I just came across this god, and love. I'm looking at creating a Paladin of Tsukiyo, and am wondering what his code of conduct would look like.
Being a god of madness...perhaps his followers believe that those who are mad/insane have seen the face of Tsukiyo, have gained un-understandable knowledge, and threfore are not capable of functioning under normal scoietal rules. Therefore...cannot harm the mad or insane as they are the children of Tsukiyo.
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As a moon-god, and a patron of madness, I see him as a proponent of the belief that what you see is *not* necessarily what you get. The books cover may be a lie, just as the moon is always the moon, no matter if you see all of it, half of it or none of it.
The moon never changes, only what you can see of it changes, and any judgments you make of the moon say more about yourself, than the moon.
A priest (or paladin) of Tsukiyo might seem, especially to more dogmatic lawful sorts, maddeningly cautious and 'non-judgmental,' as they insist that just because something *seems* obviously black or white, right or wrong, doesn't mean that one is seeing the deeper truth of the matter.
Wait two weeks, they say, and the moon appears to be a very different thing than when you first saw it. If you had leapt to judgment when the moon was dark, you would have made a terrible mistake. The seasons are similarly deceptive. Come to Minkai in the dead of winter, and it might seem a bleak and lifeless place, colorless and inhospitable. Months later, blossoms are wafting fragrance through the air and birds fill the air with song. The winter is revealed as a lie. And, many months later, the spring and summer and fall will have passed, and winter will again be truth. There is the secret of the 'madness' of Tsukiyo.
Everything is a lie. Everything is true. It's all a matter of where you stand (and what blocks your view, distorting the appearance of what you gaze upon).
The paladin of Tsukiyo cannot simply reject the darkness within himself (and within all men), cannot proudly deny rage or desire, for that way lies *true* madness. He must recognize that men are like the moon, and that you never see them all at once, a simple truth, for they are more complicated than that. Everything changes. People, like the seasons, change, and what can be said truly about a man today, may not have been true yesterday, and may be a lie tomorrow.
The life of a priest or paladin of Tsukiyo is an exercise in self-exploration. Rather than pretend that he never has an impure thought, he accepts that impure thought, and symbolically pulls such things into the light. Rather than seeing the dark side of his own spirit as unwholesome or shameful (something to deny, and therefore never truly face or conquer), he sees it as the worldly aspect that he must transcend, and regards acknowledgement of his faults as a source of strength, being admonished that the worst hypocrites are the ones who claim purity of self, and engage in scurrilous or dishonorable deeds under the cover of night, staining both themselves and the night with their inequity and self-deception.
To the paladin of Tsukiyo, the warrior or cleric who never admits to fault, is setting himself up to never be able to rise above the most worldly and unjust parts of their own natures. Each revelation about the self is a challenge to be acknowledged, confronted and overcome, as tricky to find as a skulking goblin and as dangerous to grapple with as an oni.
Woe be to the evildoer who thinks that a paladin of Tsukiyo will never draw steel. He is not the god of redemption. 'The moon has horns,' some say, and a servant of Tsukiyo will take swift action, when he feels that it is necessary, refusing to show mercy to those who have neglected to confront their own inner darkness, and allow themselves to wallow in unjust or malicious ways. The existence of the paladin of Tsukiyo is proof that a person can overcome such things, and those who do not even try are held in low regard. Like the moon, one can shine with inner light, or be obscured with shadow, and while Tsukiyo looks askance at those who deny the darkness (and so give it power over themselves), he has even less patience for those who surrender entirely to self-deception, or mire themselves in inequity, living a life without balance between shadow and self-illumination, worldly matters and spiritual concerns.
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Therefore...cannot harm the mad or insane as they are the children of Tsukiyo.
That whole post
That does it. As soon as my Jade Regent character gets to Tien Xia, he's getting a Tsuikiyo crescent tattoo between the Sarenrae ankh and Desnan symbol. :D
Seriously, awesome ideas. There's a lot to play with in that interpretation of his phases/madness.