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I have some questions re: Flurry of Blows mechanics... I want to make sure I understand what's permitted & prohibited as per the RAW & the RAI.
1). Based on the wording “as if using the Two Weapon fighting feat”, I assume that a Monk cannot use a one-handed weapon in two hands while flurrying to gain a -1/+3 trade off on Power Attack? Or can they if their second (or off-hand) attack is a kick, knee or headbutt? The fact that that the final paragraph in the description reads “A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands” could imply that wielding a weapon 2-handed is permitted. It also implies that if a Monk is using the “attack” standard action (i.e. not using FoB) they would get to use 1.5x STR Bonus while wielding a weapon 2-handed.
2). If a Monk wields two 1-handed weapons (say Temple Swords?) while flurrying would it be at -4/-4 as per the wording of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat? As per the feat the penalties are only further reduced to -2/-2 “if the off-hand weapon is light”? That part about Monk’s not having an ‘off-hand’ is from the Unarmed Strike class feature and reads as follows “A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.” It doesn’t say “or when using a special Monk weapon” which could imply you don’t get the benefit of not having an off-hand if you are using weapons, and therefore subject to the -4/-4 penalties (unless of course your 'off-hand' weapon is light).
3). Speaking of Temple Swords; are all Monks proficient with Temple Swords? The Temple Sword is a ‘Monk’ weapon which means it can be used as part of a FoB’s, but that doesn’t grant proficiency does it?
4). Back to FoB’s: Could a Monk (or Monk/Duelist) wield a single light or 1-handed piercing weapon and flurry only using that weapon (assuming that weapon had the ‘Monk’ special feature and/or could be used as part of a FoB’s)? Basically, could a 1st level Monk with only one +2 Kama use just that weapon to make both of their flurry attacks? I assume no because they flurry "as if using the two-weapon fighting feat".
Thank you in advance for your replies, depending on the answers I may have more Questions!
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3) No.
Actually, monks are proficient with the temple sword. It says so on pg. 179 of the APG. It's the last line of the description. Originally, monks weren't proficient in its use because the weapon was setting specific to Golarion. But, that changed with the release of the Advanced Players Guide.
1). Based on the wording “as if using the Two Weapon fighting feat”, I assume that a Monk cannot use a one-handed weapon in two hands while flurrying to gain a -1/+3 trade off on Power Attack?
They absolutely can, and should always wield any weapons in two hands if they are able. Though, keep in mind that they don't get 1.5x Strength to the damage during a flurry. And to head off another common question, they get Power Attack progression as if they had a full BAB while flurrying (though not at any other time).
2). If a Monk wields two 1-handed weapons (say Temple Swords?) while flurrying would it be at -4/-4 as per the wording of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?
No, there are no off-hand attacks in a flurry. They suffer only the penalties that are listed, and I am quite convinced the only reason Two Weapon Fighting is mentioned is to prevent people from trying to stack them.
3). Speaking of Temple Swords; are all Monks proficient with Temple Swords? The Temple Sword is a ‘Monk’ weapon which means it can be used as part of a FoB’s, but that doesn’t grant proficiency does it?
Being a "monk" weapon just means it can be used in a flurry. I don't know if they are automatically proficient, that would be listed in the individual weapon's description.
4)Back to FoB’s: Could a Monk (or Monk/Duelist) wield a single light or 1-handed piercing weapon and flurry only using that weapon (assuming that weapon had the ‘Monk’ special feature and/or could be used as part of a FoB’s)? Basically, could a 1st level Monk with only one +2 Kama use just that weapon to make both of their flurry attacks? I assume no because they flurry "as if using the two-weapon fighting feat"
They absolutely can. See what I said above about the mention of Two Weapon Fighting. It really has very little to do with how flurrying actually works and has more to do with preventing monks from getting even more attacks from that feat chain.
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I understand what you're saying. You however do not understand what I'm saying.
The actual text write-up (as opposed to the mechanical write-up on the chart) says that monks are proficient in the use of the temple sword.
The d20PFSRD site uses most of the text in its description, but it leaves off the final line. If you actually look in the APG or on the Paizo PRD, you will see this:
Temple Sword: Heavy blades typically used by guardians of religious sites, temple swords have distinctive crescent-shaped blades, appearing as an amalgam of a sickle and sword. Many have holes drilled into the blade or places on the pommel where charms, bells, or other holy trinkets might be attached. Monks are proficient with the temple sword.
as opposed to this:
Temple Sword: Heavy blades typically used by guardians of religious sites, temple swords have distinctive crescent-shaped blades, appearing as an amalgam of a sickle and sword. Many have holes drilled into the blade or places on the pommel where charms, bells, or other holy trinkets might be attached.
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Okay - thank you. Here are my subsequent questions;
5). Based on the answers above is it safe to assume that if a player qualifies for the feat "Crusader's Flurry" (from Ultimate Combat), which allows you to use your Dieties favoured weapon as af it were a monk weapon, a 1 level cleric dip (Crusader archetype) could grant a Monk/Cleric of Sarenrae proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with a Scimitar and you could then use a Scimitar to make a Flurry of Blows?
6a). Given the above you can now use two Scimitars simaltaneaously as if two-weapon fighting and only suffer a -2/-2 on your attack rolls.
6b). Given the above (and the answer to #4) you can also use only a single scimitar to make a FoB's and still qualify for the feat "Dervish Dance" (Inner Sea World Guide).
Dervish Dance
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
7). Assuming the above are true (specifically 5 & 6b), if you qualify for the feat "Dervish Dance", the 'Monk/Crusader of Sarenrae' can now use his/her DEX mod for both attack and damage rolls while using a single scimitar one-handed as part of his Flurry of Blows.
This could help to alleviate MAD, as STR becomes a semi-dump stat (minimum of 13 in order to get Power Attack).
8). Assuming this 'Crusader of Sarenrae' is also a 'Hungry Ghost Monk' the above feats would increase his abbility to steal Ki by way of the Scimitar's increased threat range?
9). Using the above logic, a 'Crusader of Shelyn' (favoured weapon: Glaive), would be able to use a Glaive to Flurry - thereby making Combat Reflex's very attractive for this Monk.
Thanks again for the clarification.
5. Yes.
6a. No reason to use two but you could and you wouldn't suffer the -2/-2 you would use the flurry of blows progression.
6b. Yes and part of the reason I answered 6a the way I did.
7. So far so good.
8. Sounds right but I would have to check the text first -- it might have one of those hidden, "... with an unarmed strike" things in there.
9. Not a question but a fair assessment.
5). Based on the answers above is it safe to assume that if a player qualifies for the feat "Crusader's Flurry" (from Ultimate Combat), which allows you to use your Dieties favoured weapon as af it were a monk weapon, a 1 level cleric dip (Crusader archetype) could grant a Monk/Cleric of Sarenrae proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with a Scimitar and you could then use a Scimitar to make a Flurry of Blows?
Yes.
6a). Given the above you can now use two Scimitars simaltaneaously as if two-weapon fighting and only suffer a -2/-2 on your attack rolls.
You can, but I see absolutely no reason to do so since you get the same benefit with just one.
6b). Given the above (and the answer to #4) you can also use only a single scimitar to make a FoB's and still qualify for the feat "Dervish Dance" (Inner Sea World Guide).
Yes.
7). Assuming the above are true (specifically 5 & 6b), if you qualify for the feat "Dervish Dance", the 'Monk/Crusader of Sarenrae' can now use his/her DEX mod for both attack and damage rolls while using a single scimitar one-handed as part of his Flurry of Blows.
It works. I think an easier way to deal with the Monk is to just actually take Strength as your top priority stat and recognize that you will have a sub-par AC despite extreme offensive power.
If you're in the kind of game that you decide all your magic items (like, where you can go to a magic item store or something and request a specific item, or you can give your GM a wishlist and he'll actually have it drop as loot), then an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists works about as well as this idea of yours.
8). Assuming this 'Crusader of Sarenrae' is also a 'Hungry Ghost Monk' the above feats would increase his abbility to steal Ki by way of the Scimitar's increased threat range?
Yes, it works. And let me just add that by my reading of the Ki Stealing ability, you don't actually have to be using a monk weapon or anything--it just says you have to confirm a crit.
9). Using the above logic, a 'Crusader of Shelyn' (favoured weapon: Glaive), would be able to use a Glaive to Flurry - thereby making Combat Reflex's very attractive for this Monk.
Yep, this works, too.
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Thanks for all the help. I'm going to make up 2 versions of this character idea to compare against each other @ ECL 10;
Version 1). Crusader of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost Monk 9: Strength focus build, weilds a single Scimitar in 2 hands for 1x STR to damage & 3:1 ratio on Power Attack with Flurry of Blows.
Version 2). Crusader of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost Monk 9: Strength is a semi-dump stat (only make it 13 to qualify for Power Attack). This should allow me to increase DEX to provide better AC, skill checks, and with the 'Dervish Dance' feat the 1x DEX to damage will offset the 1x STR to damage in version 1. The question is; will wielding a single Scimitar 1 handed and only getting a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack while 'Flurrying' reduce the DPR enough to make the better AC & skill checks inconsequential?
Version 2 will be more feat intensive as well (perhaps making it non-viable). But, if it does work out and you still had enough feats to incorporate the 'Crane Style' line of feats it would make for a significantly harder to hit character and work thematically.
I may want ask for more help with these builds – is this the best venue or is there another sub-forum that would be more appropriate (advice perhaps)?
Version 1). Crusader of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost Monk 9: Strength focus build, weilds a single Scimitar in 2 hands for 1x STR to damage & 3:1 ratio on Power Attack with Flurry of Blows.
Why take the dip into Crusader and use the Scimitar? Why not just use a Temple Sword? That deals more damage and monks begin proficient in it.
I realize you're probably in it for the 18-20 crit range, but let me just say that, as cool as the Hungry Ghost monk's abilities are, you trade Stunning Fist for the absolutely crappy Punishing Kick, and I'm just not sure that's a worthwhile trade for 5-10% more crits. I'd far rather have easy access to Stunning to take advantage of Medusa's Wrath than more crits and a push back that is explicitly unable to inconvenience the guy you kicked in any way.
Version 2). Crusader of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost Monk 9: Strength is a semi-dump stat (only make it 13 to qualify for Power Attack).
If you're going this route, you might as well dump Strength entirely and use another feat I've seen mentioned around the board--Piranha Strike or something like that. It duplicates Power Attack, but restricts it to finessable weapons. Worth checking out.
This should allow me to increase DEX to provide better AC, skill checks, and with the 'Dervish Dance' feat the 1x DEX to damage will offset the 1x STR to damage in version 1. The question is; will wielding a single Scimitar 1 handed and only getting a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack while 'Flurrying' reduce the DPR enough to make the better AC & skill checks inconsequential?
If you're sold on Hungry Ghost Monk, I'm pretty sure this is your best bet. Do this one.
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^Thank you for the insight. I must admit I have not played a Pathfinder Monk yet - I did however play a 3.5 Monk. I found that the 'Stunning Fist' mechanics in 3.5 made them fail much more often then not - even with a high WIS & Ki Straps the DC was never high enough to grant reliable 'stunning'.
I do realize that if you choose to knock your target prone, 'Punishing kick' is as unreliable as Stunning Fist - but there is no save permitted if you just choose to move your foe 5' (which can be a good way to put bad guys where you want them. Ideally where your allies are flanking them). It also doesn't matter if the target is more then 1 size category larger (or more) then you & you don't need to make Combat Manuevre check (so it's more reliable then a Bull Rush as well).
But that's not why I like Hungry Ghost Monk - The Monks abbility to expend ki points for additional attacks & higher AC and all the other goodies are excellent IMO. I can easily see myself running out of ki uses regularly. With a 15-20 threat range I'm thinking I'll be stealing Ki to replenish my pool at least once in every combat.
I looked up 'Piranha Strike' and it looks like it's restricted to Light Weapons... 'Medusa's Wrath' sounds awesome - but doesn't the opponent have to be stunned? Is Stunning more reliable in PF?
I would like more of your feedback though - I'm not a MIN/MAX guy by any stretch, but when I do have an idea for a character I like to try and build that character as best I can ahead of time - mainly to avoid traps & pitfalls that are easy to fall into.
^Thank you for the insight. I must admit I have not played a Pathfinder Monk yet - I did however play a 3.5 Monk. I found that the 'Stunning Fist' mechanics in 3.5 made them fail much more often then not - even with a high WIS & Ki Straps the DC was never high enough to grant reliable 'stunning'.
Well, a 50% chance to stun is generally considered pretty reliable, so yes, it's fairly easy to get the Stun to land reliably.
but there is no save permitted if you just choose to move your foe 5' (which can be a good way to put bad guys where you want them. Ideally where your allies are flanking them). It also doesn't matter if the target is more then 1 size category larger (or more) then you & you don't need to make Combat Manuevre check (so it's more reliable then a Bull Rush as well).
But there's also practically nothing moving them 5' can do for you that's beneficial. Remember, you actually want enemies right next to you so you can use a full attack to flurry them--you don't want to push them away and give them the opportunity to move further. Without flurrying, well, monks suck.
But that's not why I like Hungry Ghost Monk - The Monks abbility to expend ki points for additional attacks & higher AC and all the other goodies are excellent IMO. I can easily see myself running out of ki uses regularly. With a 15-20 threat range I'm thinking I'll be stealing Ki to replenish my pool at least once in every combat.
Yeah, that's awesome and all, but that's why I brought up Medusa's Wrath. I recommend that you spend pretty much all your Ki on the extra attacks. But if you had Stunning Fist (i.e. a way to apply conditions to enemies) rather than Punishing Kick, you could get the two extra attacks from Medusa's Wrath far more often than the extra Ki you might get from Hungry Ghost crits. Plus, you know, Stunning is awesome.
Oh, and the best way to actually utilize Medusa's Wrath reliably is to use Stunning Fist to cause the Staggered condition, since it lasts multiple rounds, rather than just the one.
I looked up 'Piranha Strike' and it looks like it's restricted to Light Weapons...
Ok, I don't really know much about it, so it looks like you need the 13 Str for Power Attack then.
'Medusa's Wrath' sounds awesome - but doesn't the opponent have to be stunned? Is Stunning more reliable in PF?
Stunned, Staggered, or a lot of other conditions. It's more reliable, but obviously, such a powerful condition is never going to be close to 100%. I would consider a 50% chance to be quite awesome.
Remember, you can use Stunning Fist on the same turn that you Medusa's Wrath--just declare it on your first attack (or second or third until it lands) and you'll have two more Medusa's Wrath attacks waiting at the end of the Flurry.
Can a monk use his stunning fist ability for an attack of opportunity? One thought among our group is that yes he can as there are no specific rules saying otherwise. The other is that the stunning fist is a special attack and therefore not available to use during such a quick opportunity like an AoO.