Tweaking the concept of spell slots

[CountMRVHS]

I've been thinking about alternate casting systems lately, and the idea of spell slots, while nice & simple, can sometimes seem too ... cookie cutter, I guess.

One of the systems I saw in another rpg involved "weariness tests" for spellcasters. Each time a caster cast a spell, he'd need to make something like a Con check, with failure meaning the spell was lost. Each successive spell cast would increase the DC, probably with higher-"level" spells causing a higher increase; the DC would also increase because of fatigue, loss of health, etc. The DC would "reset" to "normal" after resting, I think.

There was thus no hard-and-fast limit on daily spells, and a spellcaster would need to make tactical choices: Do I try to cast one more spell today, or do I hold back and use a weapon instead to save it for a bigger conflict? (Spellcasters in this system were expected to occasionally mix it up in melee for this reason - it was a Lord of the Rings rpg.)

I really like the idea here, so my question for the boards is, how might such a system look if converted or tweaked for Pathfinder? I don't know how a sorcerer would look vs a wizard in a system like this, for example.

Basically, I want to make magic a little harder, if that makes sense. I'm aware that changing the casting system may require changing the spellcasting classes, or collapsing some of them into a single class, but I'm curious to see how this would play out.

[Set]

CountMRVHS wrote:

One of the systems I saw in another rpg involved "weariness tests" for spellcasters. Each time a caster cast a spell, he'd need to make something like a Con check, with failure meaning the spell was lost. Each successive spell cast would increase the DC, probably with higher-"level" spells causing a higher increase; the DC would also increase because of fatigue, loss of health, etc. The DC would "reset" to "normal" after resting, I think.

Random mix & match options;

1) Con check or Fort save to avoid fatigued condition. (Exhausted on a natural 1.)

2) Nonlethal damage equal to spell level upon casting a spell. Botching a roll (natural 1) makes this damage lethal, instead of nonlethal.

3) Spellcraft check to cast a spell, and, if failed, fatigue or nonlethal damage results (instead of Con check / Fort save). Same effects as above for rolling a 1.

3) When nonlethal damage taken / fatigued from 'spellburn,' you can't cast arcane magic until it is healed (sort of like how you can't recover from the nonlethal damage of dehydration/starvation without eating/drinking).

4) Nonlethal damage from 'spellburn' can't be healed magically, only over time.

5) Fatigued condition ends after after combat, like that of a barbarian, instead of taking eight hours. Alternately, it lasts a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell being cast when it happened (and so, never happens when casting cantrips). Definitely advisable, as an eight hour 'time out' after botching your morning's mage armor would suck!

6) 'Meditation' (perhaps with a DC 15 Spellcraft check involved?) can allow one to recover the nonlethal damage from 'spellburn' at character level / 10 minutes, instead of the normal rate of character level / hour (which might be more limiting than desired).

7) If combining a 'roll for spells' system with a system that has a limited number of spell-slots per day (which, combined, would be a fairly significant power-down for spellcasting classes), rolling a natural 1 while attempting to cast a spell of the highest level you can cast would cause you to not only lose the spell and possible suffer one of these 'spellburn' effects (temporary fatigue and / or nonlethal damage), but *also* set up a terrible chain reaction, where you have to continue rolling Spellcraft (Fort, whatever) each following round or lose *another* spell of the highest level you can cast, until you make the roll or 'bleed out' all of your remaining magic!

8) Any sort of 'lose the spell' mechanic could also have a 'magic is always dangerous' possibility of causing random magical effects as the energies violently dissipate into the surroundings, like a magical 'critical fumble' table. I'd only use this sort of thing if I was *also* adding in 'critical successes' for spells, since it would feel less like a brutal kick in the face to spellcaster players if I left them some money on the dresser after having my way with them. :)

[Doomed Hero]

Have wizards make all their checks in advance. Use Spellcraft to, well, craft spells. They prepare all their magic in advance and they always know what they have at any given time, but when they're out, they're out until they have the time to "craft" new ones.

Have sorcerers craft spells on the fly. They make checks on the spot. They might fail, but they can always try again the next round.

In this way the wizard is more reliable, but has a hard limit in terms of what they have prepped, and a sorcerer is less reliable, but they can try to cast spells all day, well past what the wizard would normally be capable of.

[Xzaral]

Slayer's d20 by Guardians of Order had a great spellcasting system in my opinion from this kind of idea. Casting spells were based on Fort Saves, with bonuses to these saves from class levels. The system was designed to function for an over-the-top anime series, and had a few other issues, but with some editing to bring it more in line numbers wise, could work.

[CountMRVHS]

Great ideas, thank you!

I will have to give this more thought. I've always liked the idea of magic being a little less predictable, with both risk and reward - so your #8, Set, is a very interesting idea for me. (Not to mention that you won the internet for the day with that last sentence)

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Xzaral wrote:

Slayer's d20 by Guardians of Order had a great spellcasting system in my opinion from this kind of idea.

Which was eventually made into its own book: [u]d20 Advanced Magic[/u], complete with converting the SRD spells of that time into the new system.

[Xzaral]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

Xzaral wrote:

Slayer's d20 by Guardians of Order had a great spellcasting system in my opinion from this kind of idea.

Which was eventually made into its own book: [u]d20 Advanced Magic[/u], complete with converting the SRD spells of that time into the new system.

And I have officially learned something today. Was that one also GoO? Gonna have to see if I can find it.

[Drejk]

In 3rd edition Dragonlance there were optional rule that required arcane caster to make either Constitution check or Fortitude save (I don't remember exactly) - on a failure caster grew fatigued then exhausted and finally dropped unconscious. It was based upon decription from early books where each spell cast tired Raistlin.