I love witches and oracles and want them to replace sorcerers and clerics, but I also prefer spontanous casting a lot. So I want to turn the witch into a spontaneous casting class.
However, I have neither played a witch nor made any witch NPCs yet, and neither have I spend a lot of time making myself familiar with the class. So I'd need some backup from you to make sure I don't get anything seriously wrong:
Since the witches spells per day are the same as for a wizard and the familiar seems to work exactly like a spellbook, making her spontaneous would be most easy by getting her the spells per day and known of a sorcerer.
Sorcerers and oracles get a free spell known for every spell level, so I think its the easiest way to just handle partron spells the same way. Oracles get the spells at 2nd, 4th, 6th level and sorcerers get them at 3rd, 5th, 7th, so I have a choice here. But I think taking the faster oracle way seems better since it avoids getting confused with the levels mentioned in the patron lists.
And it seems to me like it's good to go. Or did I overlook something important that still needs to be adressed?
There are rules in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book that describes how you can change Memorization spellcasters into Spontaneous spellcasters. So you might want to look at that too.
For Witches, you're dead on. Simply trim down the options as that's the only mechanical difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer.
The same goes for Oracles, essentially.
If you want to keep the flavor of the familiar, and give them another fundamental difference from sorcerers, you could use the Familiar as the actual repository of their 'known' spells. They have a mystic link to the familiar. If it dies, all their known spells go away. Until they get a new familiar. Then they can change their known spells since they're replacing the familiar. They could do this willingly too, which would let them change any or all their known spells (of course, there's that pesky uber expensive charge in GP for the ritual, and the fact the patron might get upset if they do it on purpose too often). This gives them a bit of uniqueness.
Also, if you're going to go this route, may I suggest instead that you split the witch into The Hag, The Matron, and The Maiden? The Hag is basically the witch as she is in the book. The Matron prays to her patron, via her familiar, each morning for her spells (basically as a druid or cleric does) and uses Wisdom to cast. The Maiden is basically your spontaneous caster, using Charisma to cast.
WITCH BLOODLINE
Class Skill : Heal
Bonus Spells: Your bonus spell list is detemined by you familiar’s patron.
Bonus Feats : Extra Hex (you can take this feat multiple times), Combat casting, Improved Familiar, Skill Focus (Fly), Brew Potion, Deceitful, Endurance, Great Fortitude.
Bloodline Arcana: You select your spells known from the witch spell list. You also select a Hex from the Hex list at first level, and every level where you get a Bloodline power (3rd, 9th, 15th and 20th) You use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier for determinig the save DC of your hexes. You can’t choose major hexes before level 10 or grand hexes before level 18.
Bloodline Powers:
At first level, you gain a familiar choosed from the Witch list. This familiar is also tied to a patron, and this patron determines your bonus spell list. You gain access to those spells one level later than a witch would do. If you ever loose your familiar, you can’t spells from those list until you replace the familiar using the rules for doing so. Your familiar can’t learn spells from scrolls or from other familiars, and don’t add spells know to yours list above the one listed from it’s patron.
At 3rd level, You can use your spells to improve your hexes. When you use an hex, you may spend a spell slot to add half the spell level to the DC for resisting the hex.
At 9th level, your familiar gain the ability to learn spells from scrolls or other familiars for a short time. If your check is sucessfull, you may add the spell to you familiar bonus spell list for one day. The maximum number of spell levels you may add to your familiar’s list this way is equal to the maximum level spell you can cast.
At 15th level, you are able to use your spell to give you another shot at affecting someone with your hexes. By spending a 4th level spell, you can try to affect someone another time, even if you could not do so normally. You can do the same for major Hexes by spending a 6th level slot, and for grand hexes by spending a 8th level slot. You can get another try on any victim only once a day.
At 20th level, you may add the complete spell level of a slot you spend to determine the increase to your hexes DC and can retry to affect the victim as long as you have appropriate spell slot to burn.
I like that, Mongoose, but I don't think giving them bloodline powers to make their Hexes more powerful than a Witch's is the way to go. I'd rather see them keep their standard spell list, and have bloodline powers that grant them limited access to Witch spells.
Like, you gain your familiar at 1st level. (But don't need it, like a real Witch would.) You gain a Hex and a bonus spell known (from the Witch list) at 3rd level and every third level thereafter.
Don't know what to do for 9th and up.
In my house rules, I'm considering allowing Sorcerers to take spells off of both the Wizard list and the Witch list-- but they choose one at first level, and gain spells from the other at +1 level. (Let the Arcane bloodline ignore the penalty, so that it has some teeth compared to simply being Human.) That means that Wizard and Witch are your focused, studious arcanists (the equivalent of Essence and Metalism in Rolemaster terms) while Sorcerers have a grab-bag of innate arcane powers from their bloodline.
edit: Same thing with the Oracle. They get Cleric spells normally, and Domain spells at +1 level. (Druids and Rangers aren't divine in my system.) So on and so forth.
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If you want to keep the flavor of the familiar, and give them another fundamental difference from sorcerers, you could use the Familiar as the actual repository of their 'known' spells. They have a mystic link to the familiar. If it dies, all their known spells go away. Until they get a new familiar. Then they can change their known spells since they're replacing the familiar. They could do this willingly too, which would let them change any or all their known spells (of course, there's that pesky uber expensive charge in GP for the ritual, and the fact the patron might get upset if they do it on purpose too often). This gives them a bit of uniqueness.
being able to re-select your spells known is to good, worst part is to balance that out with a gold cost is going to be huge, so much that if the witch loses her familiar at a low level such that she can't afford to get a new familiar then there'd be no point even continuing with her as she can't cast spells and has a low bab, you're pretty much a commoner with extra skills at that stage
Also, if you're going to go this route, may I suggest instead that you split the witch into The Hag, The Matron, and The Maiden? The Hag is basically the witch as she is in the book. The Matron prays to her patron, via her familiar, each morning for her spells (basically as a druid or cleric does) and uses Wisdom to cast. The Maiden is basically your spontaneous caster, using Charisma to cast.
if you were ever to use these three type of witches, why would anyone ever choose the hag over the matron? the matron would have to lose a few hexes for that to become balanced
being able to re-select your spells known is to good, worst part is to balance that out with a gold cost is going to be huge, so much that if the witch loses her familiar at a low level such that she can't afford to get a new familiar then there'd be no point even continuing with her as she can't cast spells and has a low bab, you're pretty much a commoner with extra skills at that stage
No more so than the current witch, who can lose her familiar and have to pay through the nose to replace it at lower levels, and who can completely replace the spells it knows when she does.
if you were ever to use these three type of witches, why would anyone ever choose the hag over the matron? the matron would have to lose a few hexes for that to become balanced
Because they want to have a lot of skills, because they want to play a smart person vs a wise person, because they want to multi-class rogue? Why do people play memorization classes now vs prayer classes? Arguably a druid or cleric, who can pray for any spell they want at any day, is much more powerful than any wizard or witch ever created, by your logic.
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being able to re-select your spells known is to good, worst part is to balance that out with a gold cost is going to be huge, so much that if the witch loses her familiar at a low level such that she can't afford to get a new familiar then there'd be no point even continuing with her as she can't cast spells and has a low bab, you're pretty much a commoner with extra skills at that stage
No more so than the current witch, who can lose her familiar and have to pay through the nose to replace it at lower levels, and who can completely replace the spells it knows when she does.
200 gold per witch level is through the nose? sure it's a hit at first level but you should be able to afford it. at higher levels the cost is fairly low compared to how much gold you have, 2000 gold for a 10th level spontaneous caster to re-pick all their freaking spells is just to powerful. further more spells known for a prepared caster is not a fixed number, sure a witch as it stands right now could re-pick all her spells by getting a new familiar, but why would you bother? just teach the spells you want to your current familiar
Because they want to have a lot of skills, because they want to play a smart person vs a wise person, because they want to multi-class rogue? Why do people play memorization classes now vs prayer classes? Arguably a druid or cleric, who can pray for any spell they want at any day, is much more powerful than any wizard or witch ever created, by your logic.
if you were ever to use these three type of witches, why would anyone ever choose the hag over the matron? the matron would have to lose a few hexes for that to become balanced
Erikkerik pretty much hit the nail on the head here. Tell me, which wizard is more powerful, both wizards have the same gear and stats, one wizard has 50 spells in his spell book(which can be stolen or destroyed), the other wizard has every spell that a wizard for his level could cast and does not need a spell book to prepare any of these spells.
I actually did this exact thing when I played though Curse of the Crimson Throne. Just use the sorcerer's spells per day and spells know charts. You really don't have to change anything else. I played that way through 16 levels with no problems.
I like that, Mongoose, but I don't think giving them bloodline powers to make their Hexes more powerful than a Witch's is the way to go. I'd rather see them keep their standard spell list, and have bloodline powers that grant them limited access to Witch spells.
Like, you gain your familiar at 1st level. (But don't need it, like a real Witch would.) You gain a Hex and a bonus spell known (from the Witch list) at 3rd level and every third level thereafter.
Don't know what to do for 9th and up.
I did that partly because the sorcerer (witch) won't have as many hexes as the witch class will (it can get close if it always take the extra hex feat as a bloodline feat) and partly because I think that their restricted access to spells, in order to be balanced with the broader access prepared casters get (above spontaneous casting, that is), allow for a little more "oomph" in the Hex department. Also, it won't serve for hexes with no saves. And spending a spell for a +1 to +4 to DCs did not seem too much.
Plus, being Cha based casters will net them fewer skill points.
Then again, I did not playtest this bloodline, but I don't feel it's too powerfull, but the easy way would be to just switch the spell progression of the witch to match the sorcerer's and otherwise keep the class the same, as it has been suggested before.
The following explain why I tried to keep the witch alive by having a sorcerer bloodline that could use hexes and may help to understand a few of the choices I made in the context of the game setting.
For the gritty sword and sorcery game I am preparing, I banned prepared casters (magus, druid, cleric, wizards and summoners. Yes, summoners are not prepared casters, but my decision was partly to restrain the bookeeping nightmare prepared spellcasters are, and summoners are even worse.) I'm also only allowing spell-less rangers archetypes and disallowing monks, paladins and ninjas (play a unarmed fighter for the monk or a cavalier if you want to be a knight or a rogue for the ninja - no Ki powers allowed). I wanted to have something like an unified spellcasting system.
I feel the bard, inquisitor, oracle and sorcerer classes, with all their archetypes, are robust enough to support by themselves every type of spellcaster/gish you may want to play. And I think the "mundane" classes are a tad more interresting to play without prepared casters, if only because of the later access to spells of spontaneous casters.
ALl I would do is switch her over. I would not change the spell progression and would leave her familer as her "book"
@Mongoose: Makes sense. If the Witch bloodline is a replacement for the Witch class, then I have no objection to it being able to do Hexes better. I'd include something that has access to the Druid list, though-- a druidic Oracle, if you will.
@Mongoose: Makes sense. If the Witch bloodline is a replacement for the Witch class, then I have no objection to it being able to do Hexes better. I'd include something that has access to the Druid list, though-- a druidic Oracle, if you will.
Already done. I switched some mysteries from the cleric to the druid spell list (nature, wood) and elemental mysteries (wind, wave, stone and flame) can choose between the two lists at first level.