I say it's an alternate druid because it has a decidedly druidic feel, but the direction I'd like to see it go is so wildly different that there's no way an archetype would suffice.
First: The working title for the class is "Green Warden" but that sounds very prestige-y to me and kinda cheesy. Any ideas there would be helpful.
Second: I don't have a "progression" chart but I have a list of abilities I would like to see the class have, or to be able to choose from, a lot like the APG base classes. Some are more complete than others. I have them divided into tiers based on their themes, but that's not necessarily important. They should probably be divided up into tiers that reflect their relative usefulness.
Vines
- Lash (1d6 slashing, 20/x2, reach as whip, treat as natural weapon)
- Grab (Your size or smaller)
- Improved Grab (Up to one size larger)
- Constrict (Continued successful grapple checks deal lash damage; can constrict with tendrils)
Roots
- Stability (+4 vs Bull Rush/Drag, no need to eat or drink if rooted for 8 hours rest)
- Grounded (Resist elec 10)
- Immovable (Can't be moved via Bull Rush/Drag)
- Quick Recovery (Regain double health for 8 hours rest)
- Tendrils (Natural attack; up to one enemy per Con modifier (minimum 1) with root tendrils within 30 feet; treat as Lash? Or single target Entangle?)
Trunk
- Bark (Natural armor bonus)
- Veneer (DR)
- Sap Wood (Light Fortification)
- Heartwood (Medium Fortification)
Foliage
- Pigment (Fast Healing [1/min.] during daylight)
- Leaves (Faster Healing [1/round] during daylight)
- Produce (1/day?)
--- Flowering (Pheromones, condition infliction such as charm?)
--- Fruiting (Like goodberry spell?)
--- Seeding (Parasitic, condition infliction, like staggered?)
Unsorted
- Thorns (your natural attacks, armor grow thorns, add piercing damage)
- Leeching (drain small HP from natural attacks)
- Crushing Roots (requires tendrils; killing enemies with tendrils/constrict grants temp. hit points?)
This is all I have so far. I'm sure some of these things have overlap and could easily be rolled into a single ability that simply improves over time (and this would help discourage multi-classing, as PF is geared that way). I'm just in a rut.
Things I expect the druid to lose in exchange:
Basically everything except the generic stuff like Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, etc. No spells, no domains/companions, no wild shape (or very limited if anyone feels it's needed). Spell-like abilities would be welcome if someone thinks they would fit in.
Nothing? :(
I could see this going in any number of different directions. What do you want their intended niche to be? Are they full caster still, or do you want them to be half-caster? In combat, are they control oriented, damage oriented, or "mutation fighters"? Perhaps they can fill any of those roles in a pinch, but really choose to be good at one (similar to the alchemist)?
I guess what I'm saying is, if you want help, I can see myself building them in several different ways.
It's an interesting theme, kudos to you for building it up so much. I will probably tinker with making one, but without guidance, it will probably not be what you are expecting/hoping for.
Hi there! Still trying to think of a way to build the class but I do have a better name:
-Verdant
Also wondering if this would be dedicated caster or melee-based (like the ranger). I really like the idea of leeching hp off enemies - I think that's something we don't see a lot of in D&D, as well as Fruition. With Fruition, the ability should require you to sacrifice HP in exchange for healing nearby party members via berries that grow off your vine limbs/weapons. I can also see this class having really good CMB (if melee-based) or good at doing a little bit damage to a lot of enemies over a large area. Plus having access to a spell-like ability that replaces Wild Shape but allows you to become a treant or earth elemental or something.
I expect the class to lose all spell casting ability. Crazy, right?
Things I expect the druid to lose in exchange:
Basically everything except the generic stuff like Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, etc. No spells, no domains/companions, no wild shape (or very limited if anyone feels it's needed). Spell-like abilities would be welcome if someone thinks they would fit in.
As far as role goes: See how the witch has hexes, and the rogue has rogue talents, and you have discoveries and and arcana... I want this class to be able to build a niche from these abilities. Perhaps a greater focus on healing and control, though, like single-target-entangles/multi-target-grapples via roots (ultimate goal there is total immobilization of the target without casting that awful 40' diameter entangle spell). The class should be able to support in every role, as a druid, but with a greater capacity to focus on one role at the expense of another. (Italicized for emphasis, because we don't want the druid made obsolete by it, mechanically.)
I really like the idea of sacrificing HP to heal allies a lot. Could be an extension of the tap roots, leeching HP from enemies as you give an ally your own. I also would like to see some heal-over-time effects without getting too crazy.
There's not a lot of guidance, because I don't have any either. Probably the best place to start would be to determine which of these abilities are acceptable for a 1st level character and which ones should require prerequisites. That's the main problem I was having.
Verdant sounds great, but it's also the name of a sorcerer bloodline. I'd like to avoid the confusion there.
For sake of completeness:
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4 (as cleric)
Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
4+Int modifier
(Skills are same as druid except that they lose Fly (Dex) and Spellcraft (Int). If they lose Wild Shape and spells, they don't need those skills. I think I would add Stealth (Dex), to help with blending into a natural environment. Not necessary, but just a thought.)
Good saves: Fort/Will (as druid)
Weapons and armor I am unsure of. I want to say that all metal is prohibited, unlike the druid who can use metal weapons. This would hamper a lot of it's combat effectiveness, but I think it can be made up in awesome class features (like thorns).
Going that route is going to be tricky. Possibly doable, but tricky. It will likely either end up with a complement of x/per day abilities that resemble a really focused spell list, or you could try the really really wiggly route of the 3.5 warlock, that wasn't too impressive round-by-round but had the most amazing endurance ever for magical classes. It was controversial for a reason, that way.
I would encourage you to choose the roles specifically instead of saying supporting every role. The druid supports every role right now, but you kind of have to try in order to sacrifice one completely. Most character abilities are sacrificed at character creation, making it really hard to lose one in the course of an adventure.
The Alchemist is kind of the exception, and I like how it is designed- the abilities other than your focus don't really get lost, they just become so weak in comparison to others as time goes on that they stop being largely relevant.
As far as a name goes, I'd been messing around with a few concepts I'd be calling the Incarna that was based around animals. Perhaps the Flora or the Arboreal?
The Alchemist is kind of the exception, and I like how it is designed- the abilities other than your focus don't really get lost, they just become so weak in comparison to others as time goes on that they stop being largely relevant.
I think that may have actually been what I meant. This explanation/end-product is far more favorable. I never wanted the class to be a jack of all trades from level 1 thru 20, but to have the option to fill any support role based on choices made (IE: choosing abilities that grant offensive options for damage, or choosing options that focus on healing) while retaining the ability to at least perform other roles even if in a minimal capactiy (IE: having a single natural attack, but having focused on control abilities).
As far as a name goes, I'd been messing around with a few concepts I'd be calling the Incarna that was based around animals. Perhaps the Flora or the Arboreal?
Flora would work, logically, but the word itself sounds so... tame. Arboreal has a stronger feel, but still doesn't strike me. I think it's because arboreal is an adjective and not a noun, though.
I agree that Flora sounds overly soft for a class that even nominally fights. "Combat Botanist" is just silly. Arboreal Incarna sounds like syllabic salad, really. Were-Treant sounds like a monster... I'll think more later.
Do you see them as looking otherwise normal, and doing something akin to Wildshaping (or Mutagen downing) to grow most of their weapons? Or are they just getting increasingly monstrous all the time? If it is the latter, it could really bring back bad memories for a lot of people remembering the "template-in-disguise" prestige classes of 3.X.
I would highly recommend relying on an activated, transformative power for any abilities that require mutation. Even if it was frequently available, if a player likes the sound of it, but doesn't want to look like the Jolly Green Giant or Swamp Thing, they can focus on other abilities.
Compiling a list of abilities based on relative power/utility. Will make a googledoc.
I agree that Flora sounds overly soft for a class that even nominally fights. "Combat Botanist" is just silly. Arboreal Incarna sounds like syllabic salad, really. Were-Treant sounds like a monster... I'll think more later.
Do you see them as looking otherwise normal, and doing something akin to Wildshaping (or Mutagen downing) to grow most of their weapons? Or are they just getting increasingly monstrous all the time? If it is the latter, it could really bring back bad memories for a lot of people remembering the "template-in-disguise" prestige classes of 3.X.
I would highly recommend relying on an activated, transformative power for any abilities that require mutation. Even if it was frequently available, if a player likes the sound of it, but doesn't want to look like the Jolly Green Giant or Swamp Thing, they can focus on other abilities.
Compiling a list of abilities based on relative power/utility. Will make a googledoc.
What a swell guy! :D
I figure they look normal most of the time, but when they "activate" their abilities they manifest plant growth and such. Vines growing from their wrists, roots from their lower legs, bark on their skin, leafy stuff in their hair... That kinda stuff. But that's how I imagine it, I wouldn't want to restrict the flavor, just in case some did want to play up the whole "I'm turning into the Green Man" evolution thing. You reckon it's possible to be vague enough to allow both descriptions?
Easily. You can make it so that they are spiritually bonded to plants, growing those around them or even bridging the gap between plant and animal themselves. They can choose to explore any of these paths in more depth, much as a cleric chooses aspects of their deity to embody, a fighter chooses a weapon to use, or an alchemist chooses a function of magical chemistry to focus on.
Still working. Also, Races of Renown (Alluria, I think is the company) has a variety of plant-people made up. It's not one of my favorites (Boggle and Entobian are the best for me out of that book), but it may be of interest. They subvert a few plant-people tropes by not being overly wild about nature, it's interesting.
Easily. You can make it so that they are spiritually bonded to plants, growing those around them or even bridging the gap between plant and animal themselves. They can choose to explore any of these paths in more depth, much as a cleric chooses aspects of their deity to embody, a fighter chooses a weapon to use, or an alchemist chooses a function of magical chemistry to focus on.
Still working. Also, Races of Renown (Alluria, I think is the company) has a variety of plant-people made up. It's not one of my favorites (Boggle and Entobian are the best for me out of that book), but it may be of interest. They subvert a few plant-people tropes by not being overly wild about nature, it's interesting.
Just got a break big enough from real life that I can work on this idea some more. I'm currently drawing out flow-charts for compounding abilities. I have some really awesome ideas, but they are getting confusing.
What I'm currently doing is trying to devise a way for these cherry-picked features to enhance one another based on which ones you choose, so that the strength is in synergy and in class levels. For instance:
'Lash' grants the whip-like natural attack. 'Bark' grants a natural armor bonus. 'Thorns' are an extension of 'Bark' (effectively spiked armor as of right now), but also increases the damage die of 'Lash' by one step due to the addition of the little spiky things.
After you gain 'Roots' and '[some other ability having to do with gaining heath back from the soil]', your 'Lash' may be able to leech away health while you maintain a grapple with it.
Convoluted, I know.
Got about half of the abilities from the original post written up in a format that resembles that found in official material. Not sure what the balance looks like. I'm feeling like it's a little underpowered so far, with the loss of spells, Nature Bond, and Wild Shape, but some of the abilities are not fair at lower levels... Maybe once I have more completed it will look better. The names of all features listed here are just for working purposes. Metamorphosis is a bit clunky, but it's what I've got. Also, these should be in alphabetical order for formatting, but they are not. Sorry for that.
Metamorphosis: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, and so on), a grovekeeper gains a new ability that allows her to transcend the boundary between plant and animal, gaining features that grant her new powers. The grovekeeper must select a metamorphosis from the list below. If a metamorphosis is chosen at a later level, the grovekeeper gains all of the abilities and bonuses granted by that metamorphosis based on her current level. Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a metamorphosis is a standard action; the DC of any ability is DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Wisdom modifier.
Vines (Ex): The grovekeeper gains the ability to increase her reach in melee by 5 feet one per day per class level. She also gains a +4 on climb checks.
Lash (Ex): The grovekeeper gains the ability to sprout an appendage made of vine that is treated as a whip, except that the grovekeeper can use it to initiate a grapple within her reach though she receives no special bonus for doing so. The grovekeeper cannot drop the vine to avoid being tripped if she fails a trip attempt with it. The grovekeeper must have the vines metamorphosis before she can select lash.
Grab (Ex): A grovekeeper with this metamorphosis hits with her lash, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The grovekeeper has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the lash to hold the opponent. If she chooses to do the latter, she takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition herself. Grab may only be used against creatures of the grovekeeper’s size or smaller. The grovekeeper gets a +4 on the combat maneuver made to start and maintain a grapple. The grovekeeper must have the lash metamorphosis before she can select grab.
Improved Grab (Ex): While using the grab ability, the grovekeeper may initiate the grapple with creatures up to one size larger. The grovekeeper must have the grab metamorphosis before she can select improved grab.
Constrict (Ex): The grovekeeper can crush an opponent when she makes a successful grapple check. This damage is equal to her lash damage. The grovekeeper must have the grab metamorphosis and be at least 8th level before she can select constrict.
Leech (Su): The grovekeeper can suck the life out of her opponents by burrowing tiny root-like tendrils into her victims. If the grovekeeper deals constrict damage to a target with her lash or roots, she regains hit points equal to half of the damage dealt (rounded down). The grovekeeper must be at least 12th level and have the constrict metamorphosis before she can select leech.
Tap Root (Su): A grovekeeper with this metamorphosis can root herself while taking an 8 hour rest. If she does so, she does not need to eat or drink the next day. She also recovers additional hit points equal to her Constitution modifier for resting. The grovekeeper must have the stable roots metamorphosis before she can select tap root.
Stable Roots (Ex): The grovekeeper can root herself to the ground as a swift action, gaining a +4 to her combat maneuver defense when resisting a bull rush, trip, drag, or reposition maneuver while on the ground. The grovekeeper may not move while rooted, but may un-root herself as a swift action.
Grounded (Ex): The grovekeeper gains Resist elec 10. The grovekeeper must have the stable roots metamorphosis before she can select grounded.
Immovable (Ex): The grovekeeper can no longer be moved when she does not want to be moved. Attempts to bull rush, trip, drag, or reposition her simply fail as long as she is rooted with her stable roots ability; however it now requires her to use a move action to become un-rooted. The grovekeeper must have the stable roots metamorphosis and be at least 10th level to select immovable.
Quick Recovery (Su): The grovekeeper can make a miraculous recovery overnight by absorbing nutrients from the earth. When she roots herself for an 8 hour rest, she regains double her level plus Constitution modifier in hit points. For example, a 9th level grovekeeper with a 14 Constitution would regain 20 hit points for a nights rest. The grovekeeper must have the tap root metamorphosis and be at least 8th level before selecting quick recovery.
Dryad's Embrace (Su): The grovekeeper can entangle her foes from afar with her roots. While using her stable roots ability, a grovekeeper may target an enemy within 30 feet with her roots forcing a reflex save. If the target fails, they are entangled and held fast to the square they are in. If the save succeeds, the target does not gain the entangled condition. The grovekeeper may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom modifier. The grovekeeper must have the tap root metamorphosis and be at least 8th level before she can select dryad’s embrace.
Crushing Roots (Su): When using dryad’s embrace, the grovekeeper inflicts constrict damage on the target. The grovekeeper must have constrict and dryad’s embrace and be at least 10th level before selecting crushing roots.
Adding the second half of that list now.
Trunk (Ex): The grovekeeper can cause her body to harden, granting her a +2 natural armor bonus.
Barkskin (Sp): The grovekeeper further develops her ability to harden her body, granting her a +4 natural armor bonus. This ability replaces the one gained from the trunk metamorphosis. The grovekeeper must have the trunk metamorphosis before selecting bark.
Veneer (Su): The grovekeeper learns to harden the tissue beneath her bark, granting protection from some types of damage. She gains DR 5/slashing while using her barkskin ability. At 15th level this increases to DR 10/slashing. The grovekeeper must have the barkskin metamorphosis before selecting veneer.
Sap Wood (Su): The grovekeeper can now protect her vital areas more effectively by hardening those areas specifically. This grants her the benefits of light fortification while using her barkskin ability. The grovekeeper must have the barkskin ability and be at least 10th level before selecting sap wood.
Heartwood (Su): The grovekeeper learns to become as solid as an oak to protect herself from fell damage. This grants her the benefits of medium fortification while using her barkskin ability. This ability replaces the one gained from sap wood. The grovekeeper must have the sapwood metamorphosis before selecting heartwood.
Thorns (Ex): The grovekeeper’s barkskin and lash abilities are augmented by razor-sharp thorns. Treat the thorns as armor spikes in the case of barkskin; the lash ability has its damage increased by one die step (1d6 for a medium creature) and deals lethal damage.
Foliage (Ex): The grovekeeper receives a +6 bonus on stealth checks while hiding in forested areas. This is a free action made as part of the action used to hide.
Pigment (Su): While subject to natural sunlight, the grovekeeper gains fast healing at the rate of 1 hit point per hour. This is a passive ability that requires no action. The grovekeeper must have the foliage metamorphosis before selecting pigment.
Leaves (Su): The grovekeeper’s skin and hair become more receptive to sunlight, increasing her metabolism. She gains fast healing at the rate of 1 hit point per 10 minutes. This ability replaces the one gained from pigment. The grovekeeper must have the pigment metamorphosis before selecting leaves.
Flowering (Sp): Once per day the grovekeeper can cause her foliage to burst into bloom and release intoxicating pheromones. This ability functions exactly as a charm person or charm monster spell, using the grovekeeper’s metamorphosis DC. The grovekeeper must have the leaves metamorphosis and be at least 6th level before selecting flowering.
Fruiting (Sp): Once per day, the grovekeeper can spend one minute while rooted to cause 1d4+1 sweet fruits to grow from her foliage that she or her allies can eat to restore health. Each fruit heals 1d8+1 hit points. If the fruit is not eaten within an hour, they begin to rot rapidly, losing their healing properties entirely. The grovekeeper must have the leaves metamorphosis before selecting fruiting.
Seeding (Sp): The grovekeeper can use her lash to implant seeds into an opponent which sap the target’s strength, giving them the fatigued condition. If the grovekeeper continues to seed the same target, it gains the sickened condition on a second attack, and the nauseated condition on the third. The target receives a Fortitude save to resist each of the effects of the seeds. The target may spend a move action to remove the seeds, ending the effects, but for multiple seedings, the victim must use an equal number of actions to remove them. The grovekeeper may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Wisdom modifier. She must have the leaves metamorphosis before selecting seeding.
Wanderer’s Grove (Sp): The grovekeeper may cast grove of respite once per day as a spell-like ability. The grovekeeper must be at least 4th level to select wanderer’s grove.
Other abilities I'd like to see are:
- A way for the grovekeeper (new working title, btw) to funnel her own HP to her allies as she leeches away from her enemies. This shouldn't be 100% efficient, but viable for an emergency combat healing option.
- ...more lateral healing effects in general, actually. Things less like CLW or Heal in their directness. Heal-over-time is fun.
- Maybe some interesting ideas for venom/poison effects? I think the pheromone idea could go other directions as well.
- Maybe some decay themed stuff ('shrooms!) in case someone wants to go the blight-druid path? That's always neat.
- Any cool ideas from the forumites.
How about Arboreal Savant?
How about Arboreal Savant?I like this name.
Really? Hmm... Feels a bit large to me. Grovekeeper does sound like more of a prestige class though.
I think I would actually like to submit this to a 3PP. It's not something I'd like to do on a regular basis, but it would be cool to be able to say I've done something like that. So I suppose continuing to post what I'm working on would undermine that, wouldn't it?