|
I am making some adjustments to the rogue for my home game. I just want to get some feedback. Particularly if I am making the combat and magic rogues too strong and how to adjust the skill rogue.
At 1st level a rogue choses to be Skill, Combat, or Magic.
Skill Rogues: have 10 skill points per level. They gain skill focus at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, & 18. If they choose skill focus in a non-class skill then it is a class skill for them. 5th level: Once per day a rogue can take 20 on any rogue class skill as a standard action plus one additional time per day at 10th level.
Combat rogues: gain combat feats instead of rogue talents. They can use their rogue level minus 6 to qualify for fighter only feats. They gain proficiency in five martial weapons of their choice. If a combat rogue critical hits when sneak attacking he can add in his number of sneak attack dice for multiplying on a critical. For example a 7th level rogue would add 4 to his damage for critical hits.
Magic rogues:gain spell casting at level 2 instead of rogue talents. They are spontaneous casters. Their casting progresses as shown on the following tables:
Spells known may be taken from the Wizard spell list in the Core Rulebook only.
To accomplish spell casting the rogue gains a bonded item (ring, weapon, or amulet). This item is masterwork quality. They have this item at 1st level. The rogue must be wearing or holding this item to accomplish spell casting. If the item is destroyed or lost it can be replaced immediately for 200gp per rogue level. Spell casting is not regained until the item is carried for 1 week. Magic rogues cannot take metamagic or item creation feats or any feats that have spell casting as a prerequisite.
Magic rogues use Intelligence as their spell casting statistic gaining bonus spells/day from it as appropriate. At every 4th level rogues may choose a new spell to replace one previously known spell.
Sneak attack dice are d4 for magic rogues.
Spells per Day & Spells Known
Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 1 - - - - - - - -
3 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 1 1 1 - - - - - -
7 2 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 2 2 1 1 1 - - - -
11 3 2 2 1 1 1 - - -
13 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 - -
15 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 -
17 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 1
Don't like it -- not that I'm against the total idea, but it's simply too... generic. It's basically gesalt building only slightly different.
|
|
Thanks. I kinda like the combat and Skill rogue but I have powered them up to keep up with the magic rogue. I keep trying to get the magic one working but I think that it is just not gonna work without eclipsing other options. Then I look at it all together and think that it seems too powerful compared to other classes.
I think I might have to dial it back more.
|
|
Here is another take on it using talents instead:
Rogues gain an additional talent at 1st level. This talent must be one of the following: Combat Trick, Minor Magic, Finesse Rogue, Weapon Training, or Skillful.
New Rogue Talents
Continued Magic: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 2nd level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The save DC is 12+the rogue’s intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an intelligence of at least 12 to select this talent. A rogue must have the major magic talent before choosing this talent.
Further Magic: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 3rd level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The save DC is 13+the rogue’s intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an intelligence of at least 13 to select this talent. A rogue must have the major magic talent before choosing this talent.
Final Magic: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 4th level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The save DC is 14+the rogue’s intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an intelligence of at least 14 to select this talent. A rogue must have the major magic talent before choosing this talent. The rogue also learns an additional spell for Minor & Continued Magic but does not gain additional uses per day.
Battle Trick: A rogue with this talent gains a bonus combat feat. Requires Combat Trick.
Weapon Trick: A rogue with this talent gets +1 to damage for weapons with which he has Weapon Focus or Weapon Focus. Requires Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse.
Skillful: A rogue with this talent can chose feat that gives a bonus to a skill. The rogue gains that feat. This talent may be taken multiple times but must be used with a different feat each time.
One with the Trap: Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within15 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate perception check to notice the trap. The rogue receives a +1 bonus to this roll. The check should be made in secret by the GM.
I think talents or a 'focus' mechanic both could work... but should probably be a bit more subtle. A magical focus for example could offer a bonus on UMD checks and a way to increase the DC in order to not expend a charge from the item. Perhaps a minimum level on some of those talents (so there is a reason to stick with rogue levels and to prevent stealing by other classes) and allowing the further magic and final magic to also increase the useage of minor and major arcana.
|
|
I suppose with the extra talent feat you could march up the magic chain pretty quick. I will add minimum levels to all the talents to prevent abuse.
The magic ones i will key to wizard spells of that level. Weapon trick feels like 6th level so as to not step on weapon specialization. Battle trick....5th?
Skillful...um....You can take it at 1st and then every 3rd level?
Honestly for skillful I would tie back to something like the skill tricks of 3.5 -- where you can have automatic successful use, or alternative use that isn't widely available to everyone else.
For the combat I would suggest something much more intensive, a rework of the rogue's focus. He's a rogue -- he doesn't win by having more combat skill, he wins by cheating, deception and use of tricks. This should be his focus in my mind. Some automatic abilities that allow him attacks on crippled enemies that is directly tied to his sneak attack would work in my opinion... much like the monk has abilities tied directly to stunning fist.
Some examples could include:
1. Opportunistic strike -- attacking someone with the following conditions gives automatic sneak attack damage on the first attack of the round: Blind, Confused, Dazed, Deafened, entangled, prone, etc.
2. Nasty surprise -- on a successful combat maneuver you also deal your sneak attack damage to the target.
3. Trading sneak attack damage for a condition to be applied to the target (something feats offered in 3.5 I think could be automatic in pathfinder).
4. Defense against combat maneuvers -- not something that makes them free and clear of it, but when you know the tricks then you also know some defenses against them.
The problem is you are trying to allow the rogue to be able to do anything. Granted, not all at once. Rogues shouldn't even get spell casting, ever. AND they get sneak attack?
I love designing, too, but you need to have a serious look at balance. Versatility comes at a very steep price -- that's why the wizard gets nearly nothing but spells; even the sorcerer gets a lot more.
Specifically, why don't you like the rogue as it is now?
The problem is you are trying to allow the rogue to be able to do anything. Granted, not all at once. Rogues shouldn't even get spell casting, ever. AND they get sneak attack?
I love designing, too, but you need to have a serious look at balance. Versatility comes at a very steep price -- that's why the wizard gets nearly nothing but spells; even the sorcerer gets a lot more.
While much of what you say is of worth remember that right now the rogue basically doesn't exist -- or rather has no current reason to do so.
Everything he does can be done and better by either the alchemist, ranger or the ninja.
His two tricks currently are trapfinding and rogue talents. A cryptbreaker vivisectionist has the same amount of sneak attack, and trapfinding in addition to discoveries, mutagens, extracts, immunities and a good fortitude save in addition to a good reflex save.
The rogue has fallen far behind the times currently and needs to be brought up to snuff (as well as the sorcerer).
|
|
In 3.x the rogue's strength was his large class skill list and his skill points. This let him buy most skills without the skill point penalty for non-class skills.
The change in the skill system in PF took that away. They tried to make it up with the talent system but the talents don't offer anything really special compared toother classes.
I guess a simple fix would be to adjust the skill system to be more like 3.5 but then I fee like I am punishing all the other classes to help the rogue.
|
|
Ok, I have chosen to try and give the rogues something just for skills plus a couple other bits:
At 1st level a rogue can choose a martial weapon in which to be proficient. The weapon must be 1 handed or light. A rogue can choose proficiency in shields instead.
Find Secrets: A rogue adds 1/2 his level to Perception skill checks made to locate secret doors.
Skill Pool: At first level the rogue gains a skill pool with points equal to his 2 times his level. This pool refreshes after 8 hours of rest once a day. A rogue can use this skill pool to temporarily increase his total skill points for one roll.
Before rolling the rogue can choose to expend one or more points to increase his skill points for that roll. The number of pool points spent equals the skill point increase. The maximum points that can be spent equals the rogue’s level.
At 5th level a rogue can spend his entire skill pool to gain +1 to hit and damage against one opponent for a number of rounds equal to his skill pool points. This increases by +1 every 5 levels.