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Hello everyone,
I was under the impression that as long as a creature has 4 HD, they would get an ability increase, regardless if the HD is from Racial, Class, or a combination of both HD. I am building a Quasit in Hero Lab that has 3 Cleric class levels, and when I add a bonus to Wisdom, I get a flag saying that I don't have enough levels to justify an ability increase.
I'm having a heck of a time searching through the rules to find this rule; if someone has a better search-fu check than me, would you mind posting a link to the rule for me? I would like to get verification before I report it as a bug on the HL forums.
Thanks!
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Once you have determined the number of additional Hit Dice possessed by the creature, use this number to modify its other statistics. Start with ability scores. For every 4 additional Hit Dice gained by the monster, add 1 to one of its ability scores. In addition, make any modifications to its ability scores based on an increase in size, as noted on Table: Size Changes.
Level =/= HD. Such increases only take effect with level. In a LOT of situations they are synonymous. Not here though.
EDIT: Ah, Quasit. Monster rules would override the CRB here.
Hero Lab may be built to only handle player characters based on the "typcial" races. I don't know as I've never used it but that would make sense with the behavior you're seeing.
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Actually, I'm having pretty good luck building NPCs. I'm in the process of converting the Rise of the Runelords major NPCs to Pathfinder using HL. There are minor scripting and programming issues here and there, but so far, everything has been working great. In light of the rule that Nightskies posted, I'm pretty sure that HL has it right regarding this issue.
You get an ability score point bonus for every four HD, whether they are from race or from levels. That's the RAW.
Do not rely on 3rd party software for your rules interpretations. It will often lead you astray.
You get an ability score point bonus for every four HD, whether they are from race or from levels. That's the RAW.
Do not rely on 3rd party software for your rules interpretations. It will often lead you astray.
It might be that way for monsters but I don't find that in the CRB. Is this FAQ-ed? I only see the level chart in the CRB as granting an ability bonus every 4 levels, not HD.
Well, it does, actually. It's in the GM section as "possible alternate races" or some such. Unsure if a Quasit is on there though.
It's not on the PRD. It's in the print version of the CRB.
@ Ravingdork, Buri, thebwt: Nightskies already linked to the rule on it.
@ Ravingdork, Buri, thebwt: Nightskies already linked to the rule on it.
And?
@ Ravingdork, Buri, thebwt: Nightskies already linked to the rule on it.
That's clearly not the rule in the CRB and it's not the rule in the CRB in the PRD (meaning all errata is applied). So, it must only be in the Beastiary. If it were in the CRB it would apply to all races. However, since it doesn't then it only applies to monsters, even as the description says. I didn't notice the OP was asking about a Quasit (non-CRB race) and my later musing on monster races as PCs came after thebwt stated what they did. So...
And?
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...how do Bestiary rules not apply to CRB races?
Also, CRB:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
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And?
The rule quoted stated that for every additional 4 HD, you add an ability point, not you add an ability point for every 4 HD, which are two different things. The first being that you don't count the HD of a base creature towards adding ability points, only those HD in excess of its base HD. The second says that you take the total HD of the creature, divide it by 4, and that will tell you how many to add to ability points.
So, according to the rule quoted, since a quasit has 3 racial HD, and since I was only adding 3 class HD, I would not add an additional ability point. I could be taking this rules quote out of context, or be misinterpreting it, of course.
Now, that being said, I was always under the impression that you apply ability points according to the "second" I mentioned above, and was suprised when HL appeared to be operating according to the "first".
So, we have one rule quoted that shows that HL is doing it correctly. Does anyone have the/a rule that says that the "second" is actually the way it's supposed to be done?
Thanks guys!
Thanks for the clarification HangarFlying.
...how do Bestiary rules not apply to CRB races?
Also, CRB:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
That's speaking in terms of classes (being in the multiclass section, and mentioned "not just one class" in the sentence you bolded, and speaking in terms of classes in the sentence after) and not racial hit die. Since no core player race gets racial HD, the number of HD a character will have will be equal to their number of class levels.
Also, I guess technically the same rules do apply. However, things like feats and such that I've seen in the beasiary are not applicable to core races as they require things like special attacks, which no core race has or class provides.
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It says 'Hit Dice', not 'Class Hit Dice'. Unless you can show me something that says 'Racial Hit Dice' don't count as 'Hit Dice'?
Actually, there have been plenty of examples of NPCs taking Ability Focus (a Bestiary feat) for their class abilities, such as the Assassin's Death Attack and the Monk's Stunning Fist.
Can you link those, please, or give me book/page numbers? I'm genuinely interested to see them. All Ability Focus says is special attacks. You could say anything other than unarmed attacks is "special" but when you look at each class nothing is really "special" there as it's just he class' abilities.
In terms to hit dice, I wasn't stating that certain "types" of hit dice aren't applicable to ability increases. The OP asked about ability score increases. I did not see the race he was working with. The OP asked about HD playing a role in ability increases. Per the CRB, ability increases are tied to "character level" and not HD per the table in chapter 3. Hence, my comment that level =/= HD. For monster races, though, HD is clearly important as that rule is in the beastiary though it only applies to monster races. The quoted section simply states that certain properties of classes stack. It has nothing to do with racial abilities or hit dice. Hence, my statement.
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The only one I can remember off the top of my head is from the Shackled City Adventure Path, which is 3.5. (The assassin Jil, if you have access to it.) I'll see if I can track some down for you after work.
I see your point, but I think that's a matter of semantics. I read it as all HD, and I want to say there is a FAQ on it. I'll have to check.
Thanks.
And I agree it is semantics but even in the common terms there is a definition for level and one for HD and they are distinctly different. Also, throughout the game they each have their own separate ebb and flow in how they apply. HD is gained primarily though level but other than that I think you're coming from a history of mixing correlation and causation. Several of their functions correlate but other than the act of gaining an additional HD at a level (and only because that's how classes work, not levels themselves) they really don't directly interact. If it weren't for that I would agree entirely.