|
A question came up about Scent this weekend. There is a player that always buys a dog or finds a way to get scent for his PC. Regardless, does scent prevent you from being surprised unless the other people are obscuring their scent? The ability says with the ability you CAN detect things nearby, but I would think it would still require a perception check. Thoughts?
There's no perception check: that would be redundant because you already get a perception check.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Designer) Sep 20, 2011, 02:21 PM
Flag | List | FAQ | Reply
PF 21-17 avatar
–
Dragnmoon wrote:
Question You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.
Answer: If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.
Mind you, the dog not being surprised is not the same as the owner not being surprised.
|
Sadly for the sneaky guys there are a lot of creatures with scent and intelligence available to a party:
- eidolons
- familiars
- from what I know a half orc can get the scent ability, but I don't recall how he can get it.
The semi-official Paizo stance (it is in the stealth thread but not a FAQ/errata) is that Scent autodetect, unless the stealthy creature is something like a non corporeal undead.
But yes, it's automatic. And yes, just because the dog knows there's someone, doesn't mean the owner knows. Heck it doesn't mean the dog even bothers to try to tell the owner.
I mean how's the dog to know that "smell another human now is bad, but smelling other humans in a town is not bad"?
If the PC insists on his dog alerting him to a hidden enemy, have that dog go crazy in any kind of settlement when new scents pop up every second.
But also remember another thing: If the enemy is downwind, scent is only 15 feet. That's a) alot less than ranged weapons even slings can do and b) it's less than gnomes or fat dwarves can move, so even they can hide and then charge in and attack, before the dog has any idea what's going on.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
The druid and AC do not share a link of any kind, so I would have the druid/AC take the defend trick (are one of the packages including the defend trick, like combat trainging or guarding - meaning it is more or less an automatic pick for most quadruped AC) to have the AC automatically alert the druid by e. g. growls, barks or other more subtle hints.
In general I would say the dog or whatever knows its natural enemies (do orcs smell differently than humans?) and would react accordingly.
To add a question: does general knowledge of a hazard being there/approaching equal pinpointing it for an accurate attack (I'm sure, that's been discussed somewhere already)?
Ruyan.
Another thing to remember is that a druid might increase the AC's int at level 4 to 3.
At that point, while you won't be able to hold philosophical discussions with your wolf, it's alot smarter than others of it's kind and will be able to understand concepts of "now it's ok to growl, and in town it's not" alot better.
If a familiar has the scent ability, they have even higher int and would totally be able to alert the party.
However one thing to notice:
It says that scent can identify familar odors jsut as sight can do with familiar sights. That means if your animal or half-orc has smelled person A once, he will always recognize that smell (unless it's disguised).
However, if your dog smells person B for the first time, basicly all he knows is "something is there that i haven't smelled before". There's nothing saying it would even recognize it's a human or something, just something that smells.
You can still be surprised even when you know someone is around. Until you get within 5 feet of the stealthed person, you do not know the location. If the person then jumps out and charges (or stands up and fires a crossbow), you are going to have to get the opposed "avoid surprise" rolls.
Now, if someone is waiting on the other side of a pillar for you, you'll know they are there before they brain you with a mace, thus ruining the surprise.
I'd also take issue with identification by smell so immediately. A party member, sure, but a guy you saw at the bar the night before? I don't think that would work. The reverse is more likely; you get the scent of the guy who crossbow'ed and ran, then you run into him at the bar the next night and put it together.
You can still be surprised even when you know someone is around. Until you get within 5 feet of the stealthed person, you do not know the location. If the person then jumps out and charges (or stands up and fires a crossbow), you are going to have to get the opposed "avoid surprise" rolls.
Absolutely not.
First of all by this idea, you would ALWAYS be surprised by an invisible person.
Secondly, It freezes a character in place just because they know there's something there. If a wizard hears but doesn't see someone, they may want to cast detect invisibility, but they can't because they're surprised: and by what you're saying will remain so until he spots the invisible character.. which he can't do because he's stuck in a perma surprise round.
Lastly, you only need to be aware of your opponent to avoid surprise. You do not need to pinpoint them.
If you have a dumb rogue and a smart dog, the dog gets within 30 feet , BARK BARK BARK BARK! There's no surprise round. Everyone rolls initiative. Those beating the rogue don't see anything, but can move behind cover, cast defensive spells, use a move action to try to make extra spot checks, or pick a direction and fireball it.
Smart rogues should know that ~30 feet is how close they can get to a dog. The rogue readies his ambush for when he's within 30 feet. There's a surprise round, the rogue and the dog are not surprised.
So let me separate my point. There is "hidden attacker" and "surprise round"
First, the hidden attacker - You are denied dex bonus against an enemy who is hidden from you. Scent does not automatically cancel any stealth within the defined distance (30' +/- modifiers). They are still hidden from you even if you know they are around.
Second, the surprise round - I would call this situational. The surprise round starts at the beginning of combat. Combat starts when the GM asks for initiative rolls. In a normal ambush scenario, this is followed by the 'surprise round' in which the attackers and those defenders who pass the appropriate checks get one free action.
A surprise round cannot be more than the one free action in duration. I never suggested a "perma surprise round". The act of a wizard casting detect magic is interpreted by the GM. One option would be that the casting triggers the invisible creature's surprise action (thus surprise starts after detect is cast; the wizard is now much more likely to see the attacker).
If the invisible creature doesn't understand/see/know what happened, the wizard could then initiate his own surprise round against the creature that thought it was invisible. If the wizard could communicate without the creature knowing, it could be a full party sized surprise round.
I would not say the dog barking starts combat as a certain rule of gameplay. It tells the players to start making active perception checks. It ruins the ambush timing. The rogue can still surprise the party. A well trained dog would give some kind of innocuous signal that it smells something so as to alert the party without alerting the rogue.
Then there are always circumstantial bonuses to improve perception.
Scent is not a perfect defense against surprise rounds.
I would not say the dog barking starts combat as a certain rule of gameplay. It tells the players to start making active perception checks.
Ok, so why on earth can the wizard say "Dog is barking, start looking" but not "dog is barking, head to cover" or "Dog is barking, casting my own invisibility" or "Dog is barking, detect magic". There are MANY options you can take that do not require pinpointing the target. You're artificially limiting the characters responses.
Ok, I know if "I" was the DM, and everytime the dog growled people started casting spells like mad....
Some of these dungeons would have the occasional rat or suspicious looking squirell scampering around.
The doggie may be alert for 'anything unusual'... but not EVERYTHING unusual is a threat.
Ok, I know if "I" was the DM, and everytime the dog growled people started casting spells like mad....
Some of these dungeons would have the occasional rat or suspicious looking squirell scampering around.
The doggie may be alert for 'anything unusual'... but not EVERYTHING unusual is a threat.
Thats a definite counter to the dog strategy. Just not quite as effective if the druid IS the dog.
I would not say the dog barking starts combat as a certain rule of gameplay. It tells the players to start making active perception checks.
Ok, so why on earth can the wizard say "Dog is barking, start looking" but not "dog is barking, head to cover" or "Dog is barking, casting my own invisibility" or "Dog is barking, detect magic". There are MANY options you can take that do not require pinpointing the target. You're artificially limiting the characters responses.
What?
We have a communication disconnect. I'm not limiting my players. Detect Invisibility doesn't require combat for it to be cast. In fact, if my players feel like rolling initiative every time the dog barks, they very well can, just like they can choose to roll perception for active searching.
So let us take a different approach. You walk into a room with three boxes arrayed in a line 20' from you and a sign hanging above them that says "There is an attacker hiding behind a box".
Can you still be surprised? You know that there is an enemy in the room and you know the direction of that enemy. I say that you can still be surprised if you fail to figure out which box the enemy is behind before the enemy ambushes you.
Second scenario: Two sets of three boxes on each side of a room. Sign says there is an attacker in each set of boxes. You can only face one side of the room at a time. Can the attacker from the set of boxes behind you still surprise you?
Yes, they can for the same reason that suspense movies work. Just because you KNOW that the bad guy is going to jump in through the window because it is the only window and it is an obvious movie trope, you still get startled when it happens. Anticipation doesn't prevent surprise.
I'd also let my wizard fireball all three boxes as a start to the combat round (though if the spell isn't silent/still there is the wizard casting vs ambusher noticing what is coming and running for it check).
The dog is still useful. Players get out weapons and move into defensive position. They move carefully and deliberately through the room and so the ambush, when it comes, is far less effective. And the simple idea that they are now ACTIVELY searching is a big benefit.
Another thing to consider is the signal to noise ratio.
A creature with scent in a town would be overwhealmed by all the random scents floating around.
This would have one of two effects depending on training.
1. False Positives - The creature growls at everything, and thus the owner would start ignoring the warnings.
2. False Negatives - The creature is trained not to growl in these situations, and thus doesn't growl when a potential attackes comes in.
Sure, scent is an autodetect. That doesn't mean that you always get useful information out of it.