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While browsing through the Kirthfinder documents, I came across the Eldritch Knight ability for Fighters. Essentially, this allows a Fighter/Spellcaster multiclass to count half of his Fighter levels as having "+1 level in spellcasting class".
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be too far out of line to throw this straight into the core rules. Simply: Your effective spellcasting level in a class is Number Of Level In That Class + 1/2 Level In Other Classes. Every two other levels you take, you get a free spellcasting level.
I ran some quick simulations and came up with the tables below. These are the effective spellcasting levels for a multiclass character with two spellcasting classes; the first column is for a Mystic Theurge build, the second is for a build with this rule in place.
Example: At level 6, a Wizard/Cleric MT-build would have three class levels in Wizard and three in Cleric. Since they had not taken the MT PrC yet, that's also their spellcasting levels. With this rule, a level 6 Wizard/Cleric could have 3 levels in Wizard and Cleric as well, giving an effective spellcasting level of 3 + 1.5 = 4 in both.
While this initially seems like a power boost, this actually counteracts the MT's early-level weakness, then balances this out by later levels when an MT is usually a powerhouse.
Wizard/Cleric
LV: MT | Non-MT
1: 1/ 0 | 0/ 1
2: 2/ 0 | 1/ 1
3: 3/ 0 | 2/ 2
4: 3/ 1 | 3/ 3
5: 3/ 2 | 3/ 4
6: 3/ 3 | 4/ 4
7: 4/ 4 | 5/ 5
8: 5/ 5 | 6/ 6
9: 6/ 6 | 6/ 7
10: 7/ 7 | 7/ 7
11: 8/ 8 | 8/ 8
12: 9/ 9 | 9/ 9
13: 10/10 | 9/10
14: 11/11 | 10/10
15: 12/12 | 11/11
16: 13/13 | 12/12
17: 14/13 | 12/13
18: 15/13 | 13/13
19: 16/13 | 14/14
20: 17/13 | 15/15
Sorcerer/Oracle
LV: MT | Non-MT
1: 1/ 0 | 1/ 0
2: 2/ 0 | 2/ 1
3: 3/ 0 | 2/ 2
4: 4/ 0 | 3/ 2
5: 4/ 1 | 4/ 3
6: 4/ 2 | 5/ 4
7: 4/ 3 | 5/ 5
8: 4/ 4 | 6/ 5
9: 5/ 5 | 7/ 6
10: 6/ 6 | 8/ 7
11: 7/ 7 | 8/ 8
12: 8/ 8 | 9/ 8
13: 9/ 9 | 10/ 9
14: 10/10 | 11/10
15: 11/11 | 11/11
16: 12/12 | 12/11
17: 13/13 | 13/12
18: 14/14 | 14/13
19: 15/14 | 14/14
20: 16/14 | 15/14
Any feedback would be more than appreciated.
Note: These tables are not exact! I did not check my script thoroughly to find any oddities, but these should give a general idea.
PS: Thanks to the guys/gals behind those Kirthfinder rules. They've provided much inspiration :)
EDIT: Possibly make this a feat? If so, should it apply to all classes, or one class per time taken?
While it works good when they're relatively close in level, it's more of an issue when there's a greater disparity. A cleric 9/wizard 1 casts spells as a 9th level cleric, but also has access to Fly, Displacement, and other powerful wizard spells - making it seem a far more powerful choice than cleric 10.
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While it works good when they're relatively close in level, it's more of an issue when there's a greater disparity. A cleric 9/wizard 1 casts spells as a 9th level cleric, but also has access to Fly, Displacement, and other powerful wizard spells - making it seem a far more powerful choice than cleric 10.
A VERY good point. One I hadn't even thought about. Perhaps limiting your effective spellcasting level to twice your actual class level??
In this case you'd be cleric 9/wizard 1 and cast as C9/W2.
Also note I'd be taking out Mystic Theurge and the other PrCs that work similarly.
In this case you'd be cleric 9/wizard 1 and cast as C9/W2.
That sounds quite reasonable! A Cleric 8/Wizard 2 split would still be pretty nice... Cast as cleric 9/wizard 4. Only 2nd level spells though, so it's not really overpowered - at 11, you'll still only be able to cast 5th level spells.
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In this case you'd be cleric 9/wizard 1 and cast as C9/W2.That sounds quite reasonable! A Cleric 8/Wizard 2 split would still be pretty nice... Cast as cleric 9/wizard 4. Only 2nd level spells though, so it's not really overpowered - at 11, you'll still only be able to cast 5th level spells.
An early success! Haha, I really want to playtest this now :)
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Wait, Cleric 9? Is this a single feat guys? Here I was thinking you'd have to take it for each class. (Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with it applying to multiple classes, but it does get more tricky to be sure.)
I was initially going to fold this right into the rules, same way as BAB and Saves from different classes stack. I proposed at the end that if it was too powerful, perhaps making it a feat was in order.
What are your views on it? Would it need to be made a feat to balance things out?
While it works good when they're relatively close in level, it's more of an issue when there's a greater disparity. A cleric 9/wizard 1 casts spells as a 9th level cleric, but also has access to Fly, Displacement, and other powerful wizard spells - making it seem a far more powerful choice than cleric 10.A VERY good point. One I hadn't even thought about. Perhaps limiting your effective spellcasting level to twice your actual class level??
In this case you'd be cleric 9/wizard 1 and cast as C9/W2.
I'm not sure if you realise this, but other people have had the same idea (although I personally prefer the suggestion of 1.5x class level rather than twice class level).
Note that there's no reason to restrict it to spellcasters, either! So a rogue 6/wizard 6 could have the abilities of a 9th level rogue and a 9th level wizard.
Here's a link to a post with links to some older threads discussing the issue.
I foresee a few potential problems, but I think could be really good if they're addressed.
First of all, is it too good if you take 3+ spellcasting classes? Seems to me that if your druid levels are boosting your cleric and wizard casting at half speed, you gain twice as much magical power per level as a pure cleric. A Cleric 2/Sorcerer 2/Druid 2 would have 4 levels of spellcasting in 3 each of different classes. I'm not sure that's ok.
Second, a typical Martial/Caster character surely isn't that far behind the curve, particularly when you consider some of the prestige classes they can take.
I'm a great believer that as the game goes on, characters with more than one spellcasting class become far too weak, but casting class levels already help a character's martial side a little and as kyrt-ryder says, they stand to gain a LOT this way.
It sounds like these rules allow characters to gain a spellcasting level for every two spellcasting levels their prestige classes skip. That's a significant buff to characters who are usually increasing two classes at once already. I strongly recommend adding a rule that this doesn't apply to any class that raises your spellcasting ability on some levels.
I suggest the limit should be lowered so your spellcasting can only be affected by a number of levels in other classes equal to your class level.
That way a character only reaps the full possible benefit of the rule if he takes at least half his levels in a particular class.
Kyrt's example martial character with 4 levels of oracle would only ever get 3rd level spells, which, while extremely good, is not quite AS good.
My example clericdruidsorcerer only casts at effective level 3, rather than 4, which also seems somewhat more reasonable.
I think one other thing that would help balance this rule is limiting it so only spellcasting levels in other classes help. Obviously, that means the fighter doesn't benefit and it probably defeats the original point n your suggestion, but I think it would be balanced. Casters lose the most from multi-classing already.
First of all, is it too good if you take 3+ spellcasting classes? Seems to me that if your druid levels are boosting your cleric and wizard casting at half speed, you gain twice as much magical power per level as a pure cleric. A Cleric 2/Sorcerer 2/Druid 2 would have 4 levels of spellcasting in 3 each of different classes. I'm not sure that's ok.
Agreed, that's why I prefer a cap of 1.5x your actual levels instead of 2x.
For an even more extreme example, under the OP's system a level 2/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2 character, but a level 1/1/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2/2 character.
a level 1/1/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2/2 character.
Wow. yes, that's wrong.
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Yes it would. In Kirthfinder it's a Fighter Talent (and therefore exclusive to Fighters [which admittedly has absorbed some of the other melee classes] only) and a resource that has to be paid.
Just making it a simple add-on to the rules without charging anything is going to create a LOT of spellcaster multi-classing. Who wouldn't drop 4 levels in Oracle (as a random example off the top of my head) for 4th level spells by level 12 at the cost of 1 BAB.
Making this completely free just hurts the people trying to play focused non-casters.
Yes, I think in my heart-of-hearts I know it needs to have some sort of resource paid for it. And you've convinced me :) So if I ever do playtest this, I'll make it a feat. I'm really not interested in making this class-specific (as Kirthfinder), though. (That's just a personal preference :))
While it works good when they're relatively close in level, it's more of an issue when there's a greater disparity. A cleric 9/wizard 1 casts spells as a 9th level cleric, but also has access to Fly, Displacement, and other powerful wizard spells - making it seem a far more powerful choice than cleric 10.A VERY good point. One I hadn't even thought about. Perhaps limiting your effective spellcasting level to twice your actual class level??
In this case you'd be cleric 9/wizard 1 and cast as C9/W2.
I'm not sure if you realise this, but other people have had the same idea (although I personally prefer the suggestion of 1.5x class level rather than twice class level).
Note that there's no reason to restrict it to spellcasters, either! So a rogue 6/wizard 6 could have the abilities of a 9th level rogue and a 9th level wizard.
Here's a link to a post with links to some older threads discussing the issue.
Haha, I'm sure: it seemed pretty obvious once it popped into my head. I've messed around before with a "Base Magic Bonus" that worked like BAB. I suppose that, using what I originally posted, there's really no justification to NOT move this to other classes as well.
I foresee a few potential problems, but I think could be really good if they're addressed.
First of all, is it too good if you take 3+ spellcasting classes? Seems to me that if your druid levels are boosting your cleric and wizard casting at half speed, you gain twice as much magical power per level as a pure cleric. A Cleric 2/Sorcerer 2/Druid 2 would have 4 levels of spellcasting in 3 each of different classes. I'm not sure that's ok.
Second, a typical Martial/Caster character surely isn't that far behind the curve, particularly when you consider some of the prestige classes they can take.
I'm a great believer that as the game goes on, characters with more than one spellcasting class become far too weak, but casting class levels already help a character's martial side a little and as kyrt-ryder says, they stand to gain a LOT this way.It sounds like these rules allow characters to gain a spellcasting level for every two spellcasting levels their prestige classes skip. That's a significant buff to characters who are usually increasing two classes at once already. I strongly recommend adding a rule that this doesn't apply to any class that raises your spellcasting ability on some levels.
I suggest the limit should be lowered so your spellcasting can only be affected by a number of levels in other classes equal to your class level.
That way a character only reaps the full possible benefit of the rule if he takes at least half his levels in a particular class.
Kyrt's example martial character with 4 levels of oracle would only ever get 3rd level spells, which, while extremely good, is not quite AS good.
My example clericdruidsorcerer only casts at effective level 3, rather than 4, which also seems somewhat more reasonable.I think one other thing that would help balance this rule is limiting it so only spellcasting levels in other classes help. Obviously, that means the fighter doesn't benefit and it probably defeats the original point n your suggestion, but I think it would be balanced....
First, I was hoping that the penalties in place for multiclassing would take care of balancing things out. However, I do quite agree with you that your example would be too powerful... I'll have to think of a way to combat that.
Second, I would disallow the PrCs that already work similarly to this rule, so that there's no oddities like taking levels of MT, so you're effectively gaining 1.5 spellcasting levels! :)
Your suggestion of "your spellcasting can only be affected by a number of levels in other classes equal to your class level." is equivalent to hogarth's suggestion of 1.5xclass level. To have two different people come up with the same number, and in two different way, suggests to me that that's a pretty good number to work with.
Lastly, your suggestion to only make spellcasting levels work with other classes makes sense, and seems more balanced, but I am trying to incorporate the other classes as well.
As long as there is a price to pay (such as a feat) there's nothing wrong with allowing martial characters in on this as well.
Yes, I think at this point I'd definitely make it a feat.
First of all, is it too good if you take 3+ spellcasting classes? Seems to me that if your druid levels are boosting your cleric and wizard casting at half speed, you gain twice as much magical power per level as a pure cleric. A Cleric 2/Sorcerer 2/Druid 2 would have 4 levels of spellcasting in 3 each of different classes. I'm not sure that's ok.Agreed, that's why I prefer a cap of 1.5x your actual levels instead of 2x.
For an even more extreme example, under the OP's system a level 2/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2 character, but a level 1/1/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2/2 character.
Hmm, yeah that might need to be fixed. Although I'm trying to make caster-multiclassing more viable, you really shouldn't gain MORE from multiclassing than you would with a straight caster. It doesn't seem too overpowered, though, as a level 3 Wizard or Cleric would still blow them out with 2nd level spells :)
How about making it free with multiple casting classes, but including a cost to allow it to work with non-casting classes?
Use class level -3 unless you pay whatever price is required to gain levels of spellcasting from the non-casting levels.
Is it really? Relegating this to a feat that must be chosen for each casting class would resolve this perceived issue, but just how much of an issue is it?a level 1/1/1 PC would cast as a level 2/2/2 character.Wow. yes, that's wrong.
For the record, I don't personally think it's necessarily unbalanced, per se. I think it's just kind of an incentive to triple class in some cases. I find that having more than two classes tends to turn characters into kind of a flavourless mishmash (like mixing Coke, Dr Pepper and Orange Crush, or something), but YMMV.
You make a good point. Perhaps It's not so extreme as I thought at first glance.
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For the record, I don't personally think it's necessarily unbalanced, per se. I think it's just kind of an incentive to triple class in some cases.
This is my issue with it as well, though for a different reason. A 1/1 character should gain more power through going 2/1 than 1/1/1. This isn't the case in this specific situation.
I do think that this is a fairly specific case. Taking a fourth class after 1/1/1 doesn't nearly have the power margin of the first case.
This was actually one of the best ideas in Unearthed Arcana for 3.x D&D. Frankly, it's not even that unbalancing to just do it straight up - spell levels increase in power exponentially, not arithmetically. Simply losing access to the highest level of spells which should be available to a single-classed caster of your level is a pretty big loss. It's one of the reasons a gish class has never really worked, with the possible exception of the magus (I've not played one) and, of course, the cleric.
My mileage does indeed vary Hogarth. I've never been the sort of person to 'play a class.' Instead I craft character concepts and roleplay those concepts, the classes are just an underlying mechanical framework for what the character is capable of.
I agree with you. I'm just saying that in my experience "I do everything" is not a very interesting concept (or rather that it's only an interesting concept the first time).
It was my understanding that our houserule just allowed you to cast spells with a level dependent variable at a higher caster level, not that it gave you access to higher level spells. I e-mailed Kirth for some clarification on this.
Replied. You're correct with regards to the Practiced Spellcaster feat; but (currently) incorrect with regards to the Eldritch Knight fighter talent.
How we play the home game need not influence what other people choose to do with it, though.
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To the OP:
I'd go one further and make it ALL level associated class abilities - following these guidelines. here is something I am contemplating for my "Multi-Classic" approach:
Adding a 3rd class doesn't change the divisor, but it does not aid the other two classes beyond the inherent mechanics of the added class (or PrC).
Divide class level/number of classes - gain +1 to alternate class ability for every +.5 levels (so higher than .5). So each class gives the other class a +1 level equivalent (for class abilities) for every whole number.
True BAB, Saves and HD stack. Feat/Ability advancement associated with total level still work as normal under the PFRPG multi-class rules. Feats associated with class abilities (such as fighter bonus feats) are gained by these pseudo-levels.
So
1/1 Fighter/Rogue = 1st level Fighter class abilities, 1st level Rogue class Abilities. (.5=+0/.5=+0)(Other Party members: 2nd level)
2/1 Fighter/Rogue = 2nd level Fighter class abilities, 2nd level Rogue class Abilities. (.5=+0/1.0=+1)(Other Party members: 3rd level)
2/2 Fighter/Rogue = 3rd level Fighter class abilities, 3rd level Rogue class Abilities.(1.0=+1/1.0=+1)(Other Party members: 4th level)
3/2 Fighter/Rogue = 4th level Fighter class abilities, 3rd level Rogue class abilities.(1.0=+1/1.5=+1) (Other Party members: 5th level)
3/3 Fighter/Rogue = 4th level Fighter class abilities, 4th level Rogue class abilities.(1.5=+1/1.5=+1) (Other Party members: 6th level)
4/3 Fighter/Rogue = 5th level Fighter class abilities, 5th level Rogue class abilities.(1.5=+1/2.0=+2)(Other Party members: 7th level)
So the class level ability will always be behind those of team mates, just not as bad as currently structured under the 3rd ed rules.
Anyway, it's an idea I am toying with instead of running gestalt/hybrid PCs. It does lock the player into two classes for the most part, but the multi-class system of older editions pretty much did the same (you had to pay into each class advancement without choice).
Open to attacks/and or criticism.