RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just to be clear, I am not talking about anything monk related. The cestus, brass knuckles and gauntlets, alter the unarmed strike. Would one with weapon focus (unarmed strike), still gain it's benefit if using one of the mentioned items to alter unarmed strikes?
There's been some discussion on so-called "unarmed weapons" lately. Basically, weapons that you wear on your hands are supposed to be light weapons like any other and don't interact with or modify unarmed strikes at all.
So Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) would not benefit an attack with a cestus, for example.
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I hope this gets the errata it needs. I have never seen any dm rule this way for unarmed altering weapons. As a post put forth as an opinion, and not truly official, I must be wary. I remember the opinions put forth about vital strike, and how they changed in a drastic manner. I see how one may see a problem when dealing with the monk, and these items, but unarmed strikes are not exclusive to monks. There are already weapons that count as other weapons for various effects, I feel that these should be considered when dealing with this issue.
I would really like a new weapon category for these weapons. Unarmed/Armed Strikes, with subsets for simple/martial/exotic.
How you handle AoO with the weaponized strikes I'm not sure, I've always felt that not provoking with a straight gauntlet seems lame. I could live with a feat tax on these I think if it cleaned up all the vague issues. Brass Knuckles are a "credible threat" when fighting bare handed or with a dagger. Not so much when the other guy has a short sword and a buckler. IUS is frequently skipped by players, despite being something newbies look at and go; " you gotta have that right?".
I also don't think this is a monk issue, they're preloaded with IUS. It's the spellcasters where this gets funky, wizards need proficiency to punch with a gauntlet ( a glove ) but not with a bare fist. That's downright strange.
Clarification on what a gauntlet is would help. Is it a full metal vambrace? If it is I'd call that armor, and require proficiency. Is it a heavy glove with plates for the knuckles and back of the hand? Can the fingertips be exposed? If so I'd eliminate proficiency completely. It's not like boot proficiency is required to kick someone.
I know that this thread isn't about monks, but for my campaign several years back I got tired of the guy playing a monk gripping over the cost of AoMF. So, next adventure he found a pair of leather sap gloves. Just simple leather gloves (fingerless) that contained little pouches of powered lead sewn into the palms, back of the hands, and top of the third finger joint.
I told him these added a +2 competance bonus on damage with his unarmed strikes (fists only). Wasn't a weapon, wasn't armor, it was all good.
Until he asked about getting them enchanted.
After much thought, I said he could--but, the crafter would have to have Craft Wondrous Item and the biggest bonus he could get would be the crafter's caster level x3. I priced it just like a magic weapon of the same bonus, and lo and behold he was happy. And I was happy, and the peasants rejoiced.
Doesn't matter what everyone else or what the Pathfinder gurus say, if you want to add something like this to your game: IT IS YOUR GAME. Enjoy it, that is what matters.
Master Arminas
One of the biggest issues I have is enchanting these types of weapons. Some serious cheese can be created here.
Cestus can do slashing damage.
Vorpal Cestii? It's legal RAW. It fails to suspend my disbelief. I punch a dragon, dragging my strike at it's apex, roll a crit, confirm, and his head pops off. Is it cool? Hell yes. Was it even considered when it was designed, doubt it. This one is minor.
Brilliant Energy Weapons
I've personally always hated this modifier. While it makes sense for swords and axes even maces and morning stars. A Brilliant Energy gauntlet is a nightmare rule wise, it turns into light and bypasses armor, but the weapon is only 2 inches, at most, in depth. That should make it useless unless it makes your hand light which is weird. I've also had it argued by a player that since it's light his monk UA Dmg should work despite the weapon as it's no longer there.
Defending glovelike weapons
I don't see this as an issue; however earlier I read a thread where someone was advocating the use of a Defending Gauntlet for a spellcaster and that they could always use the Max Defender bonus, even while spellcasting or wand wielding, because the weapon is always "wielded" as intended.
There's more these are just a sample. Would adding Weapon Focus: UA Strike make these weirder?
The issue with errata is that this whole class of weapons is riddled with messy rule vagaries. I'd love to see it cleaned up.
I guess I am the oddball here. I have played D&D since '86; I have DMed D&D since the mid-90s. In all that time, not one player in any group that I have ever associated with has even asked for a brilliant energy weapon. I have never used one in the games I run.
It just seems too . . . Jedi for D&D (well, Pathfinder, now).
In a quarter-century, I have seen a total of six uses of vorpal, from first edition onwards.
Now, don't get me wrong, I've got players who like to min-max characters all day long, but I am just saying those two weapons have never been a problem in my game. Guess I am lucky in that sense.
MA
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One of the biggest issues I have is enchanting these types of weapons. Some serious cheese can be created here.
Cestus can do slashing damage.
Vorpal Cestii? It's legal RAW. It fails to suspend my disbelief. I punch a dragon, dragging my strike at it's apex, roll a crit, confirm, and his head pops off. Is it cool? Hell yes. Was it even considered when it was designed, doubt it. This one is minor.
The cestus doesn't deal slashing damage - it's bludgeoning or piercing.
Just to be clear, I am not talking about anything monk related. The cestus, brass knuckles and gauntlets, alter the unarmed strike. Would one with weapon focus (unarmed strike), still gain it's benefit if using one of the mentioned items to alter unarmed strikes?There's been some discussion on so-called "unarmed weapons" lately. Basically, weapons that you wear on your hands are supposed to be light weapons like any other and don't interact with or modify unarmed strikes at all.
So Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) would not benefit an attack with a cestus, for example.
Why does something so clear need to be errata'ed? Maybe I'm missing something but seems that someone is trying to use Unarmed Strike or Improved Unarmed Strike with cheese in mind and it's not supported by RAW. How about we use Unarmed Strike as intended. I don't see the need to errata something that is working as intended.
Cestus can do slashing damage.
Vorpal Cestii? It's legal RAW. It fails to suspend my disbelief. I punch a dragon, dragging my strike at it's apex, roll a crit, confirm, and his head pops off. Is it cool? Hell yes. Was it even considered when it was designed, doubt it. This one is minor.
You can put vorpal on a whip too, lots of weapons get silly once you move in to the +6 or better range. Also Cestus do Bludgeoning or Piercing, not Slashing.
My problem is not really weapon cheese. The +3 or more weapon mods are bound to get silly at times. However several months ago it was one of the issues that SKR cited in the Brass Knuckle/monk UA Dmg issue, specifically Brilliant Energy. Weapon Mods go into the behind the scenes errata discussions, yet the problematic weapon mods never come into play until after clvl 12.
I understand the plight of the devs. If you attack with a simple gauntlet, which take precedence? Weapon Focus: UA Strike or Gauntlet. For consistency they want it to be WFG but as far as common sense goes all but seasoned rules gurus are going to say UA Strike. This is compounded by the location of the simple weapon Gauntlet in the Core Weapon Chart. The gauntlet is an Unarmed Strike.
The trick is not to make the rules and their interactions even murkier while still having them be interpreted in a way that is natural to the average player's thought process.
Rules should be, at least partially, intuitive. That's a standard for actual laws in real life.
PS: my bad on the Cestus slash damage, but their are plenty of other candidates in this class of weapons.