So, I'm playing a Cavalier/Dragoon character, with the obvious focus on charging into combat astride my noble steed and all that. The obvious weaknesses being where I can take my horse (probably not into the inner court of the king's palace) and any enemies canny enough to set their weapons against my charge will do double damage against me.
My question is this: Is setting a weapon against a charge an obvious action? Obvious enough not require a perception check or combat knowledge of any kind?
My inclination is that it's only too obvious that an enemy is bracing himself for the charge holding his weapon at the ready (given that he's required to act first and ready an action), but I had a stickler GM in the past who wouldn't warn me when enemies had readied their weapons against the charge.
Just looking for a little consensus from the forums in case the issue comes up again. Thanks in advance.
I'm not posting to answer your question. I have absolutely no idea.
I'm posting to say, "great question." This same question is something I've been wondering about in the back of my head for a long time. Heck, why would someone charge a guy they just say brace against them? Then again, why would they not be able to see the guy bracing.
Overall, bracing seems like a pretty useless tactic to me. Assuming, of course, that your enemy can see you brace -- and I have no idea why they wouldn't be able to see you do that.
This is why the proper technique is to hold a ready action and brace when charged. This is how it was more or less done in real life.
I'm not posting to answer your question. I have absolutely no idea.
I'm posting to say, "great question." This same question is something I've been wondering about in the back of my head for a long time. Heck, why would someone charge a guy they just say brace against them? Then again, why would they not be able to see the guy bracing.
Overall, bracing seems like a pretty useless tactic to me. Assuming, of course, that your enemy can see you brace -- and I have no idea why they wouldn't be able to see you do that.
Well the obvious answer is that if all the enemies a bracing for a charge, and have shields, suddenly, my character becomes a whole lot less useful in combat haha. Generally, you charge your opponent who's bracing for he charge either because you don't have a better option, or you're not the only one charging.
Take my character for example; even if I'm charging a character bracing for a charge, it might still be in my best interest to charge if he's got a low chance to hit me, or I really need to kill him, say in order to break the enemies formation so the other damage dealers can get at their rear line.
That kind of ties into the second example, which is if you've got multiple chargers, your opponent only gets to deal braced charge damage to one of them. Even if they have multiple attacks, they only deal the double damage against one with that readied attack.
That's why a braced shield wall isn't a guarantee against a charging force even in the real world. Whether mounted or on horseback, that brace against the charge only real makes a difference for the first line of troops on either side, and if the weight of number is with the attackers, then there's still a good chance they'll be able to make a fight of it.
Still, what I'm asking is whether there's any way for an opponent to set against a charge subtly. Usually, it's not obvious when any creature is reading an action, but in this case, the setting of the weapon for the charge is a physical action that must be taken in order to receive the bonus on the readied action. Is there any way an opponent can set the spear without it being apparent to me that they are doing so?
I think setting against a charge is the most obvious thing in the world. If your GM won't let you just see it happening, he ought to be decent enough to allow a Perception or Sense Motive check.
After all, setting against the charge is done by readying an action. The opponent has to think you are going to perform a charge. You should be given the chance to decide if it's worth it to go through with it.
Imagine a knight on a horse, preparing himself. If he sees a hundred orcs lined up against him, and they all stick their lances out and raise their shields, he's going to notice it, and if he's alone, he's likely to reconsider.
I treat braces for charging in my game the same way that I treat any other readied action. When an NPC opts to ready any action, it is obvious to the players that the NPC has, for some reason, held his action, but I do not announce that he has readied an action (vs. simply delaying) or what trigger he is preparing for.
As such, there are warning signs that the NPC might be setting himself for your charge, but nothing is certain. If you see a guy with a spear holding back in a fight, you charge him at your peril.
Keep in mind that the initiative system is just an abstraction. It isn't as if characters are just standing around and moving, one at a time. In actuality, all the actions in a given round are more or less simultaneous, but we resolve them in initiative order simply as a concession to necessity and the very slight differences in timing.
In character, the cavalier begins charging, and the spearman sets his brace AS the horseman rides down on him, so it's likely that the cavalier has already committed himself. If the cavalier has a chance to notice anything, it's simply that the spearman seems to be fighting somewhat cautiously prior to his beginning the charge.
I think setting against a charge is the most obvious thing in the world. If your GM won't let you just see it happening, he ought to be decent enough to allow a Perception or Sense Motive check.
After all, setting against the charge is done by readying an action. The opponent has to think you are going to perform a charge. You should be given the chance to decide if it's worth it to go through with it.
Imagine a knight on a horse, preparing himself. If he sees a hundred orcs lined up against him, and they all stick their lances out and raise their shields, he's going to notice it, and if he's alone, he's likely to reconsider.
This however makes it useless who is ever gonna charge if they know they are gonna get hit for it.
That's why cavalry was seldom inclined to charge formed and ready heavy infantry.
Cavalry either waited until infantry was in broken formation and vulnerable, or else held it pinned in place while archers/artillery did the execution.
How often do you fight against enemies with brace weapons? Dont attack them .. attack someone else or dont charge.
In my game you would not know what an enemie is waiting for. If i charge at an waiting enemy with a spear ..
.. he can dodge the attack
.. he can set up his spear
.. he can attack normally
.. he can throw his spear
.. he can wait for something else.
..
I suppose this is really more of an aesthetics question them. I like your point that the initiative is an abstraction of real time, and considering that everything takes place inside of 6 seconds, it seems to me that there's little time to consider whether or not one is going to charge an opponent or not.
What about the action of readying a spear against the charge though? That's something obvious isn't it? Since it requires bracing the spear against oneself or the ground in order to deal the extra damage. An opponent can still drop their spear and avoid the charge of course, but it seems to me that it should be apparent if an opponent is set for a charge, whatever other actions they take.
I suppose this is really more of an aesthetics question them. I like your point that the initiative is an abstraction of real time, and considering that everything takes place inside of 6 seconds, it seems to me that there's little time to consider whether or not one is going to charge an opponent or not.
What about the action of readying a spear against the charge though? That's something obvious isn't it? Since it requires bracing the spear against oneself or the ground in order to deal the extra damage. An opponent can still drop their spear and avoid the charge of course, but it seems to me that it should be apparent if an opponent is set for a charge, whatever other actions they take.
I've taught people to use spears as my day job - and swords.
If you're right handed, you usually use a pike or 8' spear in a two handed grip, with your right hand back on the butt, and turn your body sideways to the target. You have a low squat. You're usually choking on the spear to conceal how much reach you have. If you have to be mobile, you'll be standing a little higher, which reduces your striking range, but usually, you'd model a group of guys with spears as taking Move-and-Ready actions.
From the perspective of the person coming at you - there's a thicket of spears, that may thrust out and hit you before you reach them - one spearman by himself is toast. Three spearmen will drop you before you get to any of them.
To brace the spear, you take your hand off the back end and slap it down while shifting your weight to your back leg. Viewed from the side, this is obvious. Viewed from the front, it is NOT obvious, and takes about a quarter of a second.
The other problem with charging spears is this: Horses are self aware, and know they can die. They have several million years of evolutionary instincts to shy away from sharp things poking into their faces especially when they're charging at it at a full gallop.
I suppose this is really more of an aesthetics question them. I like your point that the initiative is an abstraction of real time, and considering that everything takes place inside of 6 seconds, it seems to me that there's little time to consider whether or not one is going to charge an opponent or not.
What about the action of readying a spear against the charge though? That's something obvious isn't it? Since it requires bracing the spear against oneself or the ground in order to deal the extra damage. An opponent can still drop their spear and avoid the charge of course, but it seems to me that it should be apparent if an opponent is set for a charge, whatever other actions they take.
I've taught people to use spears as my day job - and swords.
If you're right handed, you usually use a pike or 8' spear in a two handed grip, with your right hand back on the butt, and turn your body sideways to the target. You have a low squat. You're usually choking on the spear to conceal how much reach you have. If you have to be mobile, you'll be standing a little higher, which reduces your striking range, but usually, you'd model a group of guys with spears as taking Move-and-Ready actions.
From the perspective of the person coming at you - there's a thicket of spears, that may thrust out and hit you before you reach them - one spearman by himself is toast. Three spearmen will drop you before you get to any of them.
To brace the spear, you take your hand off the back end and slap it down while shifting your weight to your back leg. Viewed from the side, this is obvious. Viewed from the front, it is NOT obvious, and takes about a quarter of a second.
The other problem with charging spears is this: Horses are self aware, and know they can die. They have several million years of evolutionary instincts to shy away from sharp things poking into their faces especially when they're charging at it at a full gallop.
So just to be clear, as this is something which has come up in my games as well, and the experience of someone who actually knows what they are talking about is valuable, when talking about the "real" action of bracing against a charge, a skilled pikeman can take a spear from the "I can stab at someone normally" stance to the "I am braced to receive your charge" stance in a quarter of a second, and someone charging at them full gallop would struggle to notice this.
So in game, if someone braces against a charge, this does not include the physical action of bracing the weapon, but merely preparing to make that shift in stance. Then, once the charge has happened and the horse and rider are committed (leaving aside the willingness of the horse to charge at a sharp stick), the spearman shifts his stance.
In other words, you don't know that they have braced against a charge until it is too late to stop or their spear is already in you?
Based on ad's view of it IRL I would say it sounds about right. I'd treat it the same way I'd treat a wizard preparing to counterspell, obviously telling the wizard ____ prepares a counterspell against fireball, completely negates the point of counterspelling. I'd inform the player that the guy delays his action. Admitted in the context of an obvious spear wielding melee vs an obvious charging combatant, I'd say even that information is a tad obvious.
The abstraction of combat lends itself to some weird things when viewed through the lens of "reality." Initiative doesn't exist, but there is that semblance of order in our combat rounds. Facing doesn't exist, yet in real life it's easy to lose track of multiple opponents. We make decisions for our characters based on how many hit points they have left, or how many "squares" away an opponent is, even if he's behind a wall or hidden by brush.
Given that, I'd say it's a pretty easy leap to say "this group of spearmen are holding their actions," and that should be enough of an indication that they're waiting for you to do something. Bracing is certainly more involved than a free action, immediate action, or swift action (at least according to my reading of the examples in the rules), which really only leaves a ready action. Simply moving into the area of a reach weapon attack shouldn't trigger both the conditions of a reach weapon and a braced weapon.
In addition, why would an enemy always be ready for a charge? Initiative wouldn't matter then, would it? I think a pretty good argument could be made that initiative trumps bracing.
So just to be clear, as this is something which has come up in my games as well, and the experience of someone who actually knows what they are talking about is valuable, when talking about the "real" action of bracing against a charge, a skilled pikeman can take a spear from the "I can stab at someone normally" stance to the "I am braced to receive your charge" stance in a quarter of a second, and someone charging at them full gallop would struggle to notice this.
So in game, if someone braces against a charge, this does not include the physical action of bracing the weapon, but merely preparing to make that shift in stance. Then, once the charge has happened and the horse and rider are committed (leaving aside the willingness of the horse to charge at a sharp stick), the spearman shifts his stance.
In other words, you don't know that they have braced against a charge until it is too late to stop or their spear is already in you?
If I were to rewrite the rules, I'd make it work like this:
Pikeman holds his action (well, group of pikemen do)
Horseman charges.
Pikeman move action: Change from "stab with pike" to "braced with pike"
Attack action: Attack horseman (or horse, more likely) with Pike. Damage from pike is multiplied by the same amount of damage the attack with the lance would give. This probably kills the horse.
Horseman attack action: If horse or horseman not killed, pikeman probably gets hit with a charging lance and trampled by the horse as well as shoved back by an overrun.
(I just did the shift from stab to brace here in the basement with a spear-shaft. More like a half a second, if I'm already in stance. If I'm not in stance about a second and a half.)
Now, back to reality - which bears at best a nodding acquaintance with D&D. :)
Mounted lance charges in the real world were deadly, because the lance isn't hitting with the momentum imparted by the arm of the human - his arm is just a shock absorber.
It's hitting with the momentum imparted by three quarters of a ton of horse moving at about 25-30 mph. It will go through ANY armor that it hits squarely. It will go through any shield and any armor that it hits squarely...and it will go straight through, do not pass go, two feet of broken splintered wood sticking out of the other side coated in viscera and gore.
However, that horse needs a fair bit of room to build up speed, and it doesn't change direction well at all. It should take about 160-180 feet for a charging horse to get up to speed, and even that's cutting it close. In D&D terms, you SHOULD know the horse is charging a round before it can reach you at full gallop...it takes you about half of a move action to brace for a change...and you may not kill the horse fast enough to save your own life.
Mounted lance charges in D&D are less deadly, because of the hit point abstraction. Horses in D&D are...nothing like actual horses. In any way, shape or form. But that's a rant for a different day.