I make my game's difficult for my players. CdG Is very reasonable as a DM. If nothing else it teaches them to watch there 6 and gives them a sense of realism. I seek to challenge my players.I'm a very big fan of challenging the players. I've had people leave stating that I approach the game too much like a tactical simulation. LOL. I believe that in order for their to be a sense of satisfaction, there must be a very real sense of danger and possibility of failure. So, I agree with you there.
However, with that being said, I have found the sleep/hold + CdG to be extremely effective at killing at low levels. Players just don't have a lot of tools to deal with spellcasters at those low levels, and it's very easy for a bad guy to do. I play agressively as a GM at all times, but this combo, as I mentioned before, kills more level 1-4 players than anything else. It's just too easy to do. (At level 5, you get dispel magic, which can help prevent the CDG, and melee people are normally picking up a few feats by then to help punish castesr).
So, without houseruling it out altogether, and keeping it a danager to be reckoned with, I found that allowing hero points (which just about every player loves) and lowering the DC (Which benefits mostly at lower much more than higher), makes Hold+CDG a little more managable. Don't worry, they still have plenty of challenge! (In fact, someone kicked the bucket last week. D'OH!)
Sleep is a full round action. If the caster is still casting when my turn comes around he will be making concentration checks.
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Sleep is a full round action. If the caster is still casting when my turn comes around he will be making concentration checks.
Sleep as a 1 round casting time. That is not the same as a full round action.
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
If it was simply a full round action (like a spell with a metamagic feat for a sorcerer) it would start and end during the caster turn, as it is a 1 round action it start on the current turn and end before the start of the next turn of the caster.
A 1 round casting time includes the limitations of a full round action, but it is more taxing than a full round action.
It would be a good idea for Paizo to make it clearer the difference between a full round action and 1 round casting time. Maybe it would be a good idea to add "1 round actions" at the list of actions in the "Action in combat Table".
Sleep is a full round action. If the caster is still casting when my turn comes around he will be making concentration checks.Sleep as a 1 round casting time. That is not the same as a full round action.
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.If it was simply a full round action (like a spell with a metamagic feat for a sorcerer) it would start and end during the caster turn, as it is a 1 round action it start on the current turn and end before the start of the next turn of the caster.
A 1 round casting time includes the limitations of a full round action, but it is more taxing than a full round action.
It would be a good idea for Paizo to make it clearer the difference between a full round action and 1 round casting time.
I know. I just used the wrong words.
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I know. I just used the wrong words.
You know, but I have seen too many people in these board implying that for a spontaneous spellcaster using a metamagic will require him to spend 1 round casting as they mix the meaning of full round and 1 round to let it pass without commenting.
You know me, I am a rule lawyer.
Regardless, at low level it's easy to miss the hit on the mage...assuming you rush through his guards and take the AoO's.
And hold person? Standard cast. Works wonders. Most effective 2nd level spell around, aside from maybe pit trap. Good stuff.
of course, any spell is effective in the right situation...it's just that these spells can easily spell instant death...not KO...death...for low level characters. Sure, a confirmed crit at low levels can do the same thing, hahahha. And I have had it happen...but this happens a lot more if I play the bad guys aggressively, which I do. :D
Regardless, at low level it's easy to miss the hit on the mage...assuming you rush through his guards and take the AoO's.
And hold person? Standard cast. Works wonders. Most effective 2nd level spell around, aside from maybe pit trap. Good stuff.
of course, any spell is effective in the right situation...it's just that these spells can easily spell instant death...not KO...death...for low level characters. Sure, a confirmed crit at low levels can do the same thing, hahahha. And I have had it happen...but this happens a lot more if I play the bad guys aggressively, which I do. :D
Anything can always happen, but if the mage has the NPC stat array and the player make decent rules that should not happen. I think what is more likely to happen is more important than what can happen. Everyone pulling out their ranged weapons and tagging the mage should kill him. Of course I am assuming the group does not run through making a lot of noise, and alerting the bad guys to their presence.
Anything can always happen, but if the mage has the NPC stat array and the player make decent rules that should not happen. I think what is more likely to happen is more important than what can happen. Everyone pulling out their ranged weapons and tagging the mage should kill him. Of course I am assuming the group does not run through making a lot of noise, and alerting the bad guys to their presence.Regardless, at low level it's easy to miss the hit on the mage...assuming you rush through his guards and take the AoO's.
And hold person? Standard cast. Works wonders. Most effective 2nd level spell around, aside from maybe pit trap. Good stuff.
of course, any spell is effective in the right situation...it's just that these spells can easily spell instant death...not KO...death...for low level characters. Sure, a confirmed crit at low levels can do the same thing, hahahha. And I have had it happen...but this happens a lot more if I play the bad guys aggressively, which I do. :D
But there are no other simple Lv 1-4 combos that, given a bad roll or two, so reliably result in instant death. Miss the mage, or he makes concentration...fail that will save, RIP. At level 1-4. Seriously. It's sick. I'm OK with it happening from a PK level 4 spell... but at PC level 1-4? Seriously?
It's not just that it CAN happen, its that it happens quite reliably with an enemy mage/cleric in the group. As the one playing the bad guys, why wouldn't I tank up on those types of spells as long as I have a few henchies who can pull off the CdG for me? It works very well.
I'm sorry, but level 1-4 play shouldn't include scenarios that so easily result in an instant party member death if the party doesn't do that battle exactly right AND roll well. At high levels, sure... when dealing with death (and stopping casters) is much easier.
Anything can always happen, but if the mage has the NPC stat array and the player make decent rules that should not happen. I think what is more likely to happen is more important than what can happen. Everyone pulling out their ranged weapons and tagging the mage should kill him. Of course I am assuming the group does not run through making a lot of noise, and alerting the bad guys to their presence.Regardless, at low level it's easy to miss the hit on the mage...assuming you rush through his guards and take the AoO's.
And hold person? Standard cast. Works wonders. Most effective 2nd level spell around, aside from maybe pit trap. Good stuff.
of course, any spell is effective in the right situation...it's just that these spells can easily spell instant death...not KO...death...for low level characters. Sure, a confirmed crit at low levels can do the same thing, hahahha. And I have had it happen...but this happens a lot more if I play the bad guys aggressively, which I do. :D
But there are no other simple Lv 1-4 combos that, given a bad roll or two, so reliably result in instant death. Miss the mage, or he makes concentration...fail that will save, RIP. At level 1-4. Seriously. It's sick. I'm OK with it happening from a PK level 4 spell... but at PC level 1-4? Seriously?
It's not just that it CAN happen, its that it happens quite reliably with an enemy mage/cleric in the group. As the one playing the bad guys, why wouldn't I tank up on those types of spells as long as I have a few henchies who can pull off the CdG for me? It works very well.
I'm sorry, but level 1-4 play shouldn't include scenarios that so easily result in an instant party member death if the party doesn't do that battle exactly right AND roll well. At high levels, sure... when dealing with death (and stopping casters) is much easier.
How well do you have to roll to hit a mage and make a save? Assuming NPC stat he will have a +2 in dex if it is not put into constitution.
Assuming shield and mage armor are up he might have a 20 AC, but since sheild is only rounds per level he would have to guess pretty well if he cast it before combat.
Other than that he is sporting a 16 assuming the +2 went into dex. Otherwise he might be as low as 10 or 12 AC.
Hitting him should not be hard.
As for his spell DC's a level 1 spell(I think sleep is 1st level) has a base DC of 11+3(stat mod)=14. Now if he is super optimized he will have spell focus twice for a 16, but that makes every caster a cookie cutter, and a GM predictable.
IIRC you getting a saving modifier of 4(even on your poor save) and higher than 6 is not hard to do.
That means everyone has to roll poorly on the attack and save.
If this happens a lot for your group I would think your group does not optimize their PC's while you optimize for your NPC's to which I can only suggest play down to the players or help them to play up to the NPC's.
Missing an ac 14-16 Mage with Mage armor isn't hard at level 1. Missing the cleric with medium armor isn't hard at lv 3. And mind you, you have to ready an actuon to interupt hold person Failing even a dc 14 will save happens often enough. I'm not saying it happens every encounter.....but death by evil Mage or cleric with this combo happens far more often than any other means of death in that level range.