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Why are non-backers entitled to updates?
I was thinking of getting the rpg. Without knowing any information on the status of the rpg. I no longer have any interest in getting the rpg. With how the entire project being a classical example of how not to do a Kickstarter. I had list most interest. Lack of any update is the final nail in the coffin.
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Here is a the update for those who are not backers. Copy and pasted from a thread on rpg.net. It does not look good for Josh. Putting the blme on the artist. Espcially when Hugo the artist says otherwise.
Update #83 from Quantum Roleplaying Game: An ALL NEW Science Fantasy RPG
May 6 2014
I Don't Even Know What to Title This
I've spend the better part of the last 8 months trying to decide how to write this post. I'm just going to say it:
This project is dead. For now. Possibly forever.
I've spent the better part of the last two years trying not to throw anyone under the bus regarding the project's tardiness. I've been non-specific about details, taken the blame for it, watched people compliment the reason the project was late and is now dead as being a hard worker while I'm some a%&*@&% slacker.
Now, I haven't been perfect. I've made key mistakes--mistakes born of inexperience running an entire company and mistakes of trust.
I built an amazing business plan and budget with the help of a non-profit in Seattle that does just that for new small businesses. I hired what I thought were the right people, and for the most part, they were. Though there were complaints, we released the Beta on a timeline I was comfortable with.
And that's where the problems broke the company.
See, Hugo Solis has a problem with deadlines. I noticed it before the Beta, but since we didn't need everything done by the Beta for the final book, I let it slide. Around July 2012 I informed Hugo that I absolutely, positively, needed all of the art for the book done by September 1, 2012. The Beta was releasing in August 2012 and the business plan and budget I'd developed with the help of Community Capital Development in Seattle said I had some wiggle room, but if I didn't have the book off to the presses by October 1, 2012, I was going to be in some real trouble.
Hugo informed me around the end of July that he would have everything done by September 1, 2012. He even created a handy little graphic of an August calendar that showed everything he would finish and when it would be finished by. This was about the time I started saying the following: "I need the full color world map done first. It'll take at least a week to edit it in Photoshop to add tags, borders, country names, etc. I can't get that last."
To this day, I still don't have that map.
Hugo spent August 2012 working on his free frog PDF that he made available on my previous employer's website. I spent August 2012 freaking the f&#~ out and constantly badgering him over and over and over for the art he promised. When September 1 blew by with only a very small percentage of the remaining art completed, I knew Infinite X Studio was in real trouble.
So I did the dumbest thing I've ever done: I started a new Kickstarter hoping it would generate the revenue I needed to finish project #1, probably with a new bunch of artists rather than one single artist, from which I would use the proceeds to finish project #2. You know, the TSR model. And that worked really well for TSR.
Thank all the gods ever created that Kickstarter failed. That would have been a f!&~ing disaster.
After that Kickstarter failed, I generated new budgets and a new business plan and spent a few months pitching the project to anyone I knew who had money and would be willing to buy a piece of the company to help me get over the hump and finish the book. While I was doing this, I was also pushing Hugo quite frequently to finish the f&#!ing art already. I received numerous promises of completion, numerous excuses for the lack of completion, and aged about 15 years in a single season.
I also spent that time feverishly re-writing the game. Because as luck (???) would have it, I had a profound insight that made the game unbelievably better. I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and, meanwhile, art failed to arrive, art failed to arrive, art failed to arrive.
Sometime around May-ish 2013, a hard look at my family's finances made it very clear to me that I wasn't going to sustain not having a job or even having a company for much longer. One of the additional downsides to blowing the budget and business plan to pieces was that I couldn't even afford to renew the LLC in fall 2012. This meant that, for all intents and purposes, Infinite X Studio ceased to exist then. I hoped I would be able to find away around that and I did not.
This was about the time I fired Hugo.
I then set about pitching the project to every artist I could find and afford. Guess what those artists wouldn't do? Create art without being paid up front! Do I blame them? Hell no! I paid Hugo 50% up front. Will I ever do that again? Hell no. Of course, that presupposes I ever try to create something like Infinite X Studio again and, at this point, that seems highly unlikely.
Hugo begged his way back into the project with additional promises. A few new small pieces of art came in. I continued to say again and again and again that I needed the full color world map done IMMEDIATELY and it continued to fail to arrive.
In August 2013, reality finally broke my little bubble and I realized I needed a f#@&ing job.
So I started working part time as an admin at a sporting goods store. For those of you who f~%$ing hate me right now, feel vindicated that I now have a horrible, demeaning job well below my talents and job experience. Hurray me.
Even after starting the admin job in September 2013, I continued pushing for more art and trying to balance a new life schedule around work. And then in early November 2013, I lost all the steam I'd built. Lacking money, any new art in months (and definitely no f%!~ing sign of the largest part of the entire project, the full color world map), I focussed on work and the family and decided I was done with marketing, business, the hobby gaming industry, the Internet, Facebook, and 99% of all forms of communication. In January of this year, I began the process of wracking up massive debt (hurray America!) to return to school and get a degree in something I'd come to love in the past 10 years that would keep me as far away from the hobby industry as possible: Physics. So for those of you who f+~%ing hate me--sorry, that's actually going pretty okay right now.
Now you have the history. Now you have my frustrations. I've endeavored to present them in a way that's void of marketing speak and b&&&#*~+ reality dodging. I'm sure I've left out a few things here or there, but the story is the simplest version I could write.
So here's the deal:
Technically (and quite legally, in fact), this project died when the LLC died. I still want to finish this thing, but in order to do so, I would need money to start a new LLC (the smallest cost) and money to hire an artist or seven to finish the project (the largest cost). For all his professing that there's quote, "Art just laying around" waiting for me, there's absolutely nothing in the past two years that leads me to believe this is in anyway true whatsoever. And, on the small chance I'm wrong and it is true, there's zero trust remaining between myself and Hugo Solis. Hiring him for this project, despite his obvious and incredible talent, was the biggest mistake I've ever made in my professional career.
While there may be future updates and while there's a slim--oh so slim--chance a miracle might happen and money might fall out of my ass, you should assume there will be no further updates from me. The project is dead, no longer has a timeline, and has no plans to resume.
Unless, like I said, money falls out of my ass.
Josh
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Hugo Solis response to be continued and expanded on later:
Hugo Solis about 1 hour ago
Well, since I'm beign held responsable for the failure of this project, I guess I aught to speak in my behaf. I can't take the time for a detailed response right now, but you'll hear from me tonight.
I'm do have to say this now, the only ways I could possibly be directly responsable for this are:
1- If the product was Press-ready (all written,edited and laid out) and just waiting for the artwork to be dropped in. -Not the case, as you all are aware on IXS's last post on september 2013, the product was not yet finished, not even 100% written, let alone edited or laid out.
2-If a BIG chunk (25-35k) of the funds was used to pay upfront for the artwork and thus leaving Infinite X Studio budgetless to pay for art and on a dead-set position to demand such artwork from me. This wasn't the case. You are owed the info that less than 5% of the total funds raised on the campaign was used to pay for artwork, and that some of the artwork that was delivered was never paid for.
3- If we had a contract we only I could do the artwork for this game, and thus rendering Infinite X studio helpless to find another artistic solution. -We did not have such contract.
I'll give more details tonight (that is, if I'm not banned from here).
If anyone needs to contact me you can find me on deviantart as Butterfrog and also on facebook under the same butterfrog moniker.
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Agreed.
For those curious, I'm just as in the dark as most of you. I worked with Josh fairly heavily during the first year. He would give me some rules documents to go over/edit/update, I'd find holes, revise them, send them back. I did this for everything he sent, but the last thing I heard was that he'd contact me once the final revision was done so I could go over it.
Obviously, this never happened.
The whole situation is just a sad state of affairs. I consider Josh and Hugo both friends, though admittedly I haven't really talked to both in any significant way in a year or so. Still, I didn't want to say anything bad about either of them, so I've relegated myself to watching from the sidelines.
Sorry if that doesn't help anyone much, but it's all I got. I was really hoping to see this book come out, and invested my time to see that goal. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that will come.
I wish Josh and his family the best, regardless of the situation, same with Hugo. I've met Josh, his wife, his daughter, and now Hugo has a new child too. I can't bring myself to be negative towards either of them.
Not to say you guys shouldn't follow what you believe, following the legal process or what-not; just explaining my own perspective.
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Yeah, I've been less than civil to Josh on the "Backers Only" update comments, but wouldn't drag that level of discourse here. I wish all the backers luck in whatever course they pursue.
I hope Josh has better results with his physics degree than he had with publishing. I hold him fully accountable for this failure and strongly disagree with his choice to assign the bulk of the blame at the feet of Hugo. I wish he held himself accountable for the project's failure, and do not blame anyone seeking outside forces to hold him to his responsibility under the regulations of kickstarter and/or the law. If that accountability bankrupts him, it would solely be the results of his choices.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I've been a classroom teacher. The language and tone Josh Frost uses in his last update is familiar to me. It sounds like a student asserting that he can't complete an assignment, but that [a list of work I cannot directly check] is complete. When I ask to see evidence of [a list of work I cannot directly check], the student would back-pedal.
In this case, the language and tone Josh uses make me think that the reason he cannot provide the PDF of the manuscript is that it is far from finished, despite his assurances. I might be wrong, but that's what my ear is hearing.
I wish Mr. Frost well. I hope he turns in terrific work for his new Physics instructors.
One last note, and then I close my interest in this work.
I started working part time as an admin at a sporting goods store. For those of you who f!%!ing hate me right now, feel vindicated that I now have a horrible, demeaning job well below my talents and job experience.
There is no dishonor in honest work done well. Mr. Frost may feel that office work is "demeaning" or "below his talents", but that's on his attitude, not the work itself. You don't have to win Ennies to do work you can be proud of.
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Yeah, as someone who has worked in retail for over twenty years, I was quite put off by that. My wife, who has done the same, was pretty furious with his attitude.
Probably a lot of people who gave the man money to pursue his dream took that money from working on jobs he apparently considers beneath him.
At some point... there isn't much he could say, is there? A complete abject surrender is not an easy thing to do, nor is it necessarily wise to publicly assume guilt in as process-happy society as the US. Acknowledge that no matter what he says now is going to look pathetic. Don't judge people too harshly.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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It's OK, I'm drafting a lenghty novella aimed at Attorney General for the area. I can haz waitburger.
I've got no skin in this game on either side, but there is a huge gap between a colossal F___ Up and fraud and I think it's pretty clear which this is. I'm sure you could take him to small claims court, but it's unlikely anything will stick criminally.
An act of kindness was done. It may or it may not involve free stuff...
Josh finally admitted to screwing us over, saying the project was dead, in the crassest way possible.
There's some folks pushing for legal action and it looks like the Attorney General's office has been called. $42,000 is missing and there's no way Josh is going to get off the hook on it. I have no idea what he's thinking... but it's not logical.
He has not acted that way.
There has been continuing work on the project including beta release of the rules though beta.
Joshua, has never said or behaved as though he had no obligation to finish. What is clear, is that the game grew to big, and I think it is fair to say he did not manage that growth well, but he has still worked towards completion in good faith. That, while large chunks of his personal life have been falling to pieces.
What you are effectively suggesting, is using the law to kick a man when he is down, for trying to do something good. You are I supposed entitled to do it, but I think I'll retain my right NOT to be THAT guy.
Heh... I still remember this.
I can't even begin to show disappointment at the few of Josh's fans that helped enable his smokescreen and justified his early abandonment of the project, shaming concerned backers as "kicking him while he was down", trying to defend his choice to ignore the people who worked hard to help him in forums, which helped the growing concern in 2013 turn into a resounding "meh".
I hope that people who felt this way will show more critical thinking when it comes to crowdfunding projects in the future.
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I don't have horse in this race (besides backing various KS - from established companies) but no one is going to be getting their money back on this one.
Joshua Frost =/= Infinite X Studio - which has folded.
His LLC gives him a wide range of protection from personal lawsuit. If under IXS LLC he showed some actual effort to produce the game but ran out of funds, had other issues - if he can show that work was done and that this wasn't a scam then he is protected/no one is getting their money.
KS is an investment platform, not a pre-order system - investments fail everyday. Consider yourselves lucky that it wasn't your entire stock portfolio or 401K that was backed into a company and just a few hundred bucks (in some cases it was several hundred to one 2,500 backer). Losing any sum of money to this kind of incompetence is enough to possibly turn people off from gaming or supporting the hobby in the future, just keep this in perspective as a failed investment and pick projects based on critical thinking and evidence, due diligence vs. your heart/good intentions/want this guy to succeed as a motivation.
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His LLC did not start the kickstarter. His LLC is not what the kickstarter backed.
Were the funds paid directly to him or Infinite X studios? Did he promise this project or did Infinite X studios, where he was the CEO? I don't know how he structured this for his own protection. If he did it behind a company, and that company folded then there is little recourse in getting money back. You can make his life hard with some legal battles, but if the company is defunct/BK then this is a done deal.
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Kickstarter is not an investment system. It's a funding system involving promise of product. Please don't perpetuate myths.
Please explain - what is it then?
"It's a funding system involving a promise of product", with no enforcement system or mechanism in place if that project falls through. AKA an investment, KS is not a store. When you buy from a store (in person or on the web) their is an exchange of funds in return for product, in some cases the store has a limited refund policy. This architecture does not exist in the KS format. Even as go betweens they (KS) can do nothing to get your money back.From the KS FAQ
Q: Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
A: Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
The "This" part takes you to a link that cannot be copy/pasted here - this is what it says:
Link from FAQ:
If your project is successfully funded, you are required to fulfill all rewards or refund any backer whose reward you do not or cannot fulfill. A failure to do so could result in damage to your reputation or even legal action on behalf of your backers. For more on accountability, see the FAQ (a link that takes you back to the FAQ, aka infinite loop).
This is a funding platform, re: investment tool, one where the failure to fulfill obligations leads to damage of your reputation (already done) or even legal action on behalf of your backers.
There is no mechanism for KS to provide refunds or to force the creator of the project to provide refunds. The basis for legal recourse exists if the creator did not protect himself (by creating a company) or if there is proof that there was intent to fraud.
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I'm sorry you guys lost money on this - I wasn't trying to be combative or defend what transpired - just explaining the fact that until a legal mandate has been established the concept of crowdfunding is very much a risky investment.
It would be nice if Frost turned over his IP and content to a 3rd party who could finish the game. It's happened before with some success - not with a KS but with a pre-order: Razor Coast.
I think there's confusion on what an investment is. Investment would involve ownership or a stake in the proceeds. And would trigger certain types of oversight. This is fundraising. Patronage is the closest model, except with promise of product.
Kickstarter isn't an investment, it's patronage with a promised payoff.
The argument perpetuates untrue myths,Because of that, it'd be great if gamers, who are not lawyers, would stop trying to be lawyers.
Considering how many companies have now been taken to court over doing what Josh has pulled (including former owners of LLCs)... expect it to happen.
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I think there's confusion on what an investment is. Investment would involve ownership or a stake in the proceeds. And would trigger certain types of oversight. This is fundraising. Patronage is the closest model, except with promise of product.Kickstarter isn't an investment, it's patronage with a promised payoff.
The argument perpetuates untrue myths,Because of that, it'd be great if gamers, who are not lawyers, would stop trying to be lawyers.
Considering how many companies have now been taken to court over doing what Josh has pulled (including former owners of LLCs)... expect it to happen.
You should invest in a mirror. Unless of course, you are a lawyer?
This amounts to giving a charitable donation with no guarantee or mechanism to get your return. Worse than an investment actually - especially if the person keeps delaying the project forever. Again - no guarantee that product would be delivered on time and no mechanism for enforcement if it's late.
Good luck on getting your money back.
This amounts to giving a charitable donation with no guarantee or mechanism to get your return.
I'll now just be blunt about it, Aux. Please stop perpetuating misinformation. You are incorrect about the lack of ramifications in not fulfilling an agreement, where parties have pledged financial support.
Crowd-funding is not a charitable contribution. I cannot claim the pledge on taxes, like I do with the actual charities my business and I both contribute to. It is not an investment in the way a stock broker would know it. In part, I feel as this is why people seem to misunderstand. You are pledging your financial support in return for fulfillment of a reward. Your pledge doesn't lose monetary value, nor does it gain monetary value.
I'll ask you to spend a bit of time researching what has happened to other LLC's who have been sued over their "giving up" on a business arrangement, through Kickstarter or other means of "for material gain" fund raising. In Joshua's home state, a few have already been to court; and at least one are still in the process.
Please take this for what it is, a request and not as an insult. I accept your lack of understanding on the topic, but please... stop spreading incorrect information. It doesn't help.
Thank you.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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This amounts to giving a charitable donation with no guarantee or mechanism to get your return. Worse than an investment actually - especially if the person keeps delaying the project forever. Again - no guarantee that product would be delivered on time and no mechanism for enforcement if it's late.
Good luck on getting your money back.
It's a legal contract and you have the same methods of getting your money back that you have for any unfulfilled contract. Primarily small claims court or if you can get class action status, a higher court.
The question is how much effort people are willing to spend pursuing a refund (also, whether you can work around the LLC status to get a refund from Frost directly since the LLC is clearly done).
Wow...dodged a bullet on this one.
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This amounts to giving a charitable donation with no guarantee or mechanism to get your return. Worse than an investment actually - especially if the person keeps delaying the project forever. Again - no guarantee that product would be delivered on time and no mechanism for enforcement if it's late.
Good luck on getting your money back.
It's a legal contract and you have the same methods of getting your money back that you have for any unfulfilled contract. Primarily small claims court or if you can get class action status, a higher court.
The question is how much effort people are willing to spend pursuing a refund (also, whether you can work around the LLC status to get a refund from Frost directly since the LLC is clearly done).
Like I said and have been saying - you get no guarantee or mechanism from KS to make sure the pledges are fulfilled. Having to take a person or their LLC to court is not a KS mechanism to fulfill pledges.
Until I see something different/people getting their money back I am not going to change my stance that this is still just a risky investment - with promise of a return and with no built in mechanism for fulfillment (or KS method of forcing the producer to refund pledges).
Here at Kickstarter HQ, we expect creators to fulfill rewards, offer refunds if they’re unable to complete their project, and communicate with backers at every step along the way. While Kickstarter is the platform for this agreement, we are not a part of it. We do not investigate a project creator’s ability to complete their project, nor do we facilitate refunds or the fulfillment of rewards. While in most cases you’ll find that rewards are delivered as promised, it’s also important to realize that some projects might not fulfill as planned.
When you back a project on Kickstarter you enter into an agreement with the project creator, as described in our Terms of Use: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
These terms outline the responsibilities of backers and creators. This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I hope that this helps to address your concerns, but please don’t hesitate to let us know if you have any other questions.
Rage all you want, doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Frost didn't run laughing to the bank with all of your money because of my posts here. He couldn't manage a project, he took some legal precautions (which will bear to see if they help him) and he squandered all of his resources. It's going to take a class action (which doesn't look like its happening) to try and get everyone's money back (which is gone anyway) from a system with no internal mechanism of protection = investment platform.So you can all it whatever you want, I'm telling you how it's functioning.
This is patronage without promise or mechanism to enforce fulfillment (as the KS post states).
I didn't create the problem and I'm not perpetuating myths - that's the reality of how all of this has turned out so far as I see it; no matter how much people jump up and down, pound their fists or come after me.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And now it looks like Hank Woon's "N.R.G. System Core Rules" ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gamesmiths/nrg-system-core-rulebook-og l ) is dead, too.
Kickstarter. Not good for former Paizo developers.
What makes you say that one is dead? The last update on it is from the start of last month and says they're about to shove their other product out the door and that will let them focus on NRG.
Is there some info elsewhere?
Fair enough, i thought it said September but I may have misread it.
Yeah that does sound pretty bad.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I have the last Update from N.R.G. Listed as the 1st of September. A two month gap, which isn't the longest gap in updates I've ever seen on an overdue project. (It was a call for final address changes for the Sinbad project btw, hardly something a company shutting up shop would be asking for).
And the last Update from their Sinbad project was 7 days ago, stating that the product was 99% complete, and that they were only waiting on a few incidentals such as ISBN before it went to print proof stage.
I'm not saying it's *not* dead, but there's still a while to wait before calling it on this one.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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N.R.G. is, as of today, dead. The second SINBAD book is also dead. The softcover edition of the first SINBAD book is dead. Game Smiths is refunding most of the kickstarted money.
A private note from Game Smiths to backers explains that their writers, artists, and publisher all flaked on them.
Now see THAT is something that would make me angry. Not the refunding, that's good.
But how does the Sinbad project go from 99% done to "Everyone flaked out on us"?
Did they give any specifics on how exactly they got flaked out on? I mean that seems like almost everyone involved screwed them over in some way.