So I am new to RPG (playing pathfinder) but have played the card game magic. I am trying to figure out how things happen and in what order. I did search the messageboards but did not find a ruling that was clear and concise so I hope I can get one here. I have read the rules on the terms in question, but am confused so please help me out. Here are my questions.
1. Immediate actions. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/- Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
So it seems to me as a spell caster the only spell you could cast (without using quickened feat/rod of quick etc) is feather fall right? If not what other spells could a caster cast? What are things that non casters can do?
Also is an attack as a readied action an immediate action?
2. Readying an action. pg. 203 CoreRuleBook -You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. to do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before you next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So a spell caster can ready a grease spell to use if enemy x charges, enemy y attacks friend b, or if enemy z pulls out a wand/staff/rod to cast with. This is legal and depending on which enemy did their move first if it was the condition of the ready state then the grease spell would be cast? If so that seems to me to be very similar to a Immediate action which is what confuses me.
3. The order of events. Is it similar to magic as in last happens first? example - group A - fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard vs
group b -fighter barbarian ranger sorcerer.
group A fighter readies a lunge attack in case someone moves to within 10' of him, rogue readies a tumble to flank mob that engages fighter, cleric readies blindness/deafness to cast if the sorcerer starts casting and the wizard readies grease for the barbarian.
Init. Group A Group B
rogue -22 fighter -19
fighter -20 barbarian -17
cleric -16 sorcerer -16
wizard -14 ranger -15
Now those actions only work because group A has the init correct?
when the fighter from b charges the fighter from a, A lunges making 1 attack, goes back to start position and gets -2ac till his next turn? there is no AoO is there?
when barbarian charges the grease spell goes off and if he does not make his save he falls prone? if not what happens? what happens if he makes his save? The spell talks about being cast on the area that someone is already in however, the wizard has fought against barbarians and knows they like to charge so if he starts charging he charges into area of grease spell, book spell does not talk about that so not sure what happens? higher DC for save, automatically fall? etc.
Now lets say the sorc has the highest init so i can see if I understand order of things. sorc readies a spell, grease, to cast when the b fighter charges the a fighter. so fighter b charges, fighter a lunges, and sorc casts grease however, the way it is resolved is last first? so first we have to see if fighter a passes his grease save. then we have to decide can he still lunge while standing in grease? does he have to make another save to make the lunge and another to recover from the lunge? then fighter b gets to make his attack. he gets +2 from the charge, does that make it so fighter a has to make another save? does fighter b see that the grease spell is cast and change his charge attack into a charged bull rush?
Okay sorry for the lengthy post but I am so confused. There are a lot of rules and they don't seem to give a lot of examples, guess they leave it up to me(gm) to decide. Please provide good information, examples, and links to help me with this & help me became a gm/better gm. Am I just making things overly complicated?
Thanks,
+J
First, welcome to Pathfinder! It is a great game.
1. Immediate actions. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/- Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
So it seems to me as a spell caster the only spell you could cast (without using quickened feat/rod of quick etc) is feather fall right? If not what other spells could a caster cast? What are things that non casters can do?
Also is an attack as a readied action an immediate action?
In the CRB (Core Rulebook), Feather Fall is about it. There might be others, but they do not spring to mind. If you get any other books, they add quite a few more. They generally resolve much like in Magic, in that they resolve before the effect they are interrupting.
Quicken spell, however, does not allow you to make a spell "immediate," only "swift." While similar, you can only use a swift action on your turn. Like an... Instant instead of an Interrupt? Is that a thing? Man, it has been a long time since I played Magic.
2. Readying an action. pg. 203 CoreRuleBook -You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. to do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before you next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
So a spell caster can ready a grease spell to use if enemy x charges, enemy y attacks friend b, or if enemy z pulls out a wand/staff/rod to cast with. This is legal and depending on which enemy did their move first if it was the condition of the ready state then the grease spell would be cast? If so that seems to me to be very similar to a Immediate action which is what confuses me.
What you can get away with as a readied action is a bit broad, and up to GM discretion. The way I've always seen it run, is you need to be rather specific in your choice. That is, enemy X charges OR enemy y attacks OR enemy Z pulls a wand. Not all of the above.
If they let you set multiple conditions, then yes, it would be cast as they do the action, interrupting them. It is very much like an Immediate Action, except that 1) it can be a standard, move, or swift action (which cannot normally be done off-turn), and 2) It does not use up your Swift Action in the next round in the way an Immediate Action would. You could conceivably use both an immediate and readied action in the same round.
3. The order of events.
In general, just like Magic. First in last out. However, that specific part doesn't come up too much. We'll have to look at your specific examples.
when the fighter from b charges the fighter from a, A lunges making 1 attack, goes back to start position and gets -2ac till his next turn? there is no AoO is there?
Complicated. Lunge gets... confusing. I would say that, since Lunge only lasts until "the end of your turn," it would end after you resolved your readied attack. Thus, you would not get an AoO (as your threat range has been reduced to 5' again, and the enemy only entered it, rather than moved through it).
when barbarian charges the grease spell goes off and if he does not make his save he falls prone? if not what happens? what happens if he makes his save? The spell talks about being cast on the area that someone is already in however, the wizard has fought against barbarians and knows they like to charge so if he starts charging he charges into area of grease spell, book spell does not talk about that so not sure what happens? higher DC for save, automatically fall? etc.
Obviously, yes he would fall prone if he failed his save. The "if not" scenario is not directly addressed in the rules, as they only talk about "walking at half normal speed." My assumption would be that it fouls the charge (turning it into a move action with a standard action attack at the end). However, because it is not explicitly called "difficult terrain" (which you cannot charge through), an argument could be made that the squares of the grease only cost double movement and require a DC10 acrobatics check, but do not stop the charge. Sort of a GM call at this point.
Now lets say the sorc has the highest init so i can see if I understand order of things. sorc readies a spell, grease, to cast when the b fighter charges the a fighter. so fighter b charges, fighter a lunges, and sorc casts grease however, the way it is resolved is last first? so first we have to see if fighter a passes his grease save. then we have to decide can he still lunge while standing in grease? does he have to make another save to make the lunge and another to recover from the lunge? then fighter b gets to make his attack. he gets +2 from the charge, does that make it so fighter a has to make another save? does fighter b see that the grease spell is cast and change his charge attack into a charged bull rush?
Wow, this is getting complicated. Anyway, yes, last in first out still applies. The fighter would have to save once against the grease. If he fell, he could actually still make his readied attack, but he would have a -4 penalty for being prone.
Lunge does not actually require you be standing or that you move. It is odd, and a GM could state that it doesn't work, but from a Rules as Written perspective there is no problem with prone-lunging. If the fighter didn't fall, he would not have to make an additional check for using Lunge, as it does not technically require moving (as it just increases reach).
And no, Fighter A doesn't have to make extra saves or anything when attacked. Despite "lunging" he is, by the rules, always standing in the same spot. Also, whether Fighter B can change his attack type after declaring the charge is a matter of judgment. Rules as Written, probably not. But a given GM might allow it to occur, at their discretion.
Okay sorry for the lengthy post but I am so confused. There are a lot of rules and they don't seem to give a lot of examples, guess they leave it up to me(gm) to decide. Please provide good information, examples, and links to help me with this & help me became a gm/better gm. Am I just making things overly complicated?
Lengthy is fine. You are correct in that Pathfinder requires quite a bit more judgment than something like Magic. While Magic is heavily abstracted and thus allows developers and judges to give lots of attention to weird corner cases, RPGs are much broader. The intersection of rules, intent, and physics can lead to weird things. As a GM, I feel the best solution is to allow players to get away with tricks, so long as they are not excessively abusive or overpowered. For yourself, you need to decide where those boundaries lie.
I didn't provide links because, well, it would take forever with a post this long. However, most things are covered in the "Combat" chapter of the CRB. Just pay close attention to exact wordings, and you should do fine.
Also, yes, you are making things a bit overly complicated. This is not an insult, mind you. It is just that this probably won't come up. Interrupting interrupts with interrupts is way, way less common in Pathfinder than in Magic. Physical combatants quickly gain multiple attacks that require a Full-Round action, preventing these sorts of shenanigans after the first round. Spellcasters can pull some weird tricks, but will generally prefer to just fire off their battlefield control spells to start rather than make a readied action and hope it gets set off.
I hope this was clear enough. These are some complicated corner cases, and it is entirely possible I misinterpreted a thing or two. Use your judgment, and most importantly, don't get bogged down with details in-game. It is more important that things run smoothly than you figure out the exact answer to a complicated corner case during your play time.
There's one thing that I think needs clarifying. It appears that you think the entire "group A" goes before the entire "group B" in the given example. That's not the case. The actual initiative order in example would be like this:
22: group A rogue
20: group A fighter
19: group B fighter
17: group B barbarian
16: group A cleric and group B sorcerer (highest DEX modifier goes first)
15: group B ranger
14: group A wizard
Among other things, that means group A's wizard can't ready grease to prevent group B's barbarian from closing on the group, since the barbarian has his turn before the wizard does.
Plus, The cleric can only ready to prevent the sorcerer from casting a spell if the cleric has a higher DEX modifier than the sorcerer.
Beyond that, you've essentially got it right :)