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I was in the middle of posting to the advice forum for how to make playing a UC Dervish Dancer not painful for levels 1 and 2 and you can see why in this sample 20 point buy stat block I made:
Female human bard (dervish dancer)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses normal vision; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13
hp 11
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. during battle dance)
Melee scimitar +1 (1d6+1/18-20) or
kukri +4 (1d4+1/18-20)
Inspire Courage Melee scimitar +2 (1d6+2/18-20) or
kukri +5 (1d4+2/18-20)
Bard Spells Known:
1 (2/day): feather step, timely inspiration
0 (at will): light, mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 15
Feats Arcane Strike, Weapon Finesse
Traits reactionary, fencer
Skills Acrobatics +7, Escape Artist +7, Perception +4, Perform (Dance) +6, Stealth +7, Use Magic Device +6
Languages common
Gear studded leather armor, scimitar, kukri
POWERS
Battle Dance: move action activation. Move action to switch types. +10 enhancement bonus to land speed. Pick one effect:
--- Inspire Courage (Su): +1 morale bonus on saves vs. fear, +1 competence bonus to attacks/damage.
While looking at the rules, two things occurred to me:
1) It really seems like this archetype was meant to have Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Otherwise you'll be stuck with very weak melee attacks and only limited spells for buffing/debuffing. Is this archetype supposed to hurt this bad for levels 1 and 2? I know James Jacobs said weapon finesse is a feat tax for Dervish Dancer, but was the intent really for this tax to make your first 4-8 game sessions with your Dervish Dancer like this?
2) It looks like the text of Battle Dance doesn't give any indication that it replaces Bardic Performance. This seems like an editing error, but it does exist in the Battle Dance section of Dawnflower Dervish from Inner Sea Magic:
This ability alters the standard bardic performance ability.
So what's the verdict? Is the weapon finesse feat tax for a Dervish Dancer bard supposed to be counteracted by the ability to do both Battle Dance performances and Bardic Performances (albeit only one at a time and limited by the performances that are replaced by the other Dervish class abilities)?
The Battle Dances alter Bardic Performance.
Dawnflower Dervish states that. Dervish Dancer does not.
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A dervish dancer is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except the dervish dancer only affects himself, and does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance.
Seems like an alteration to me. It may not have the exact wording as Dawnflower Dervish, but it seems, at least to me, to be clear RAI that these should replace the standard Performances, instead of these being in addition to the regular. Otherwise, there would be no need to state that they can use Inspire Courage/Greatness/Heroics as Battle Dances, as they could simply use the Bardic Performance, and it would have a better effect.
A dervish dancer is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except the dervish dancer only affects himself, and does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance.Seems like an alteration to me. It may not have the exact wording as Dawnflower Dervish, but it seems, at least to me, to be clear RAI that these should replace the standard Performances, instead of these being in addition to the regular. Otherwise, there would be no need to state that they can use Inspire Courage/Greatness/Heroics as Battle Dances, as they could simply use the Bardic Performance, and it would have a better effect.
I agree with you. But I wanted to make the post anyway. It seems like a decent, if relatively unimportant FAQ candidate to add in that one line.
Also, with the archetype not giving you the Dervish Dance feat at level 1, you are forced to be a very subpar melee character for two levels with almost nothing to make up for it with other class abilities. Compare these melee lines from two characters with identical builds save for archetype choice:
Dervish Dancer lvl 1 melee: scimitar +1 (1d6+1/18-20)
Dervish Dancer lvl 1 inspired courage melee: scimitar +2 (1d6+2/18-20
Dawnflower Dervish lvl 1 melee: scimitar +4 (1d6+4/18-20)
Dawnflower Dervish lvl 1 inspired courage melee: scimitar scimitar +6 (1d6+6/18-20)
The fluff text for Dawnflower Dervish makes it seem like it should be the opposite:
Many bards of her faith hone their skills with dance and scimitar to become dervish dancers (see Ultimate Combat), but some tread a similar path focused more on magic and healing than swordplay. These are the Dawnflower dervishes.
Everything else about the class can be used with any weapon. You can two weapon fight. You can wield a shield. You don't have to keep a hand free. No new class features triggers off of dexterity. You can put the feat and its archetype together but you certainly don't have too.
What weapons do you suggest for two weapon fighting? I tried to make it work and found it even more lacking than just sucking it up for two levels and taking Dervish Dance feat. Keep in mind even though you are saying no class features build off dex, TWF requires it.
And in comparison to a stardard bard, I don't think dervish dances is really that much more painful at levels 1-2.
He can at least sit back and buff his allies. He can also afford to have a lower melee stat and pump his cha for better spellcasting. And having that whip means he can at least trip a few foes along the way.
Technically speaking, this archetype could not possibly give Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, as long as we are talking about the Dervish Dancer. Dervish Dance is a feat from ISWG, and so would not be included in the Core line of rulebooks.
I hadn't thought of that.
On TWF: Good luck. I think it is just too feat heavy for a bard, Dervish Dancer or not. Plus it interferes with spellcasting, and gains less from the Dervish's haste dance. It would be great to get all those attacks while moving, but I'm not sure that is enough to make it worth it.
That said: kukris and critical feats would be fun at high levels. Even more feat intensive, but running about inflicting status effects and setting off teamwork feats is darn appealing.
To answer the original question, I'd say the way to make levels 1 and 2 not suck is "go strength." Your acrobatics is based off of your Charisma, and you can use Bard spells to keep your defenses adequate. Kind of against the flavor, but that is the price you pay sometimes. Embrace the weird, add a couple of levels of Barbarian, and call yourself a War Ballerina. Let your enemies laugh as you lop off their heads.
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To answer the original question, I'd say the way to make levels 1 and 2 not suck is "go strength." Your acrobatics is based off of your Charisma, and you can use Bard spells to keep your defenses adequate. Kind of against the flavor, but that is the price you pay sometimes. Embrace the weird, add a couple of levels of Barbarian, and call yourself a War Ballerina. Let your enemies laugh as you lop off their heads.
This is now my next character concept. Thanks, Mort.
On TWF: Good luck. I think it is just too feat heavy for a bard, Dervish Dancer or not. Plus it interferes with spellcasting, and gains less from the Dervish's haste dance. It would be great to get all those attacks while moving, but I'm not sure that is enough to make it worth it.
That said: kukris and critical feats would be fun at high levels. Even more feat intensive, but running about inflicting status effects and setting off teamwork feats is darn appealing.
To answer the original question, I'd say the way to make levels 1 and 2 not suck is "go strength." Your acrobatics is based off of your Charisma, and you can use Bard spells to keep your defenses adequate. Kind of against the flavor, but that is the price you pay sometimes. Embrace the weird, add a couple of levels of Barbarian, and call yourself a War Ballerina. Let your enemies laugh as you lop off their heads.
A small dip into any full BAB all martial weapons class can go a long way towards making the STR dervish dancer quite scary I keep thinking this archetype really benefits from reach weapons actually 2 levels of phalanx fighter to make a spear or pole-arm a reach one handed weapon when using a shield in particular even makes picking up EWP: Fauchard (1d10 18-20 range *2 crit reach and trip) possible. Use a big shield and get a more devastating version of whirlwind attack as your capstone even with the dip. You will be either long term buffing or investing in a glove of storing for the polearm to have the free hand to cast spells (the benefit of adding dervish dance as a feat is the free hand for spells) Dance of the 23 steps masterpiece to have an enhanced defense option MIGHT be worth it but I am not sure.
I'd be inclined to say a dervish dancer can still use bardic performance. Fascinate, distraction, and inspire competance are still in his class features, and cannot be used as a battle dance. I'm not sure if you can still use inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics as performances in addition to as battle dances, but the wording (gain them as battle dances) makes me think battle dance only. Also, the bardic master pieces are performances if I recall.
The battle dance class feature never says that it replaces or alters bardic performance, only that it functions like it. So, 3 performances plus masterpieces, everything else is a battle dance instead.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'd be inclined to say a dervish dancer can still use bardic performance. Fascinate, distraction, and inspire competance are still in his class features, and cannot be used as a battle dance. I'm not sure if you can still use inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics as performances in addition to as battle dances, but the wording (gain them as battle dances) makes me think battle dance only. Also, the bardic master pieces are performances if I recall.
The battle dance class feature never says that it replaces or alters bardic performance, only that it functions like it. So, 3 performances plus masterpieces, everything else is a battle dance instead.
Dervish dancers have six performance types, all battle dances. They don't get fascinate, distraction, etc. Since they can only affect themselves, the vast majority of bardic performances wouldn't make any sense for them anyway.
The stock wording for how to state that an archetype replaces all your abilities came along after UC was out, or I'd have used that wording instead.
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The stock wording for how to state that an archetype replaces all your abilities came along after UC was out, or I'd have used that wording instead.
When the next errata comes out, maybe it should say battle dance replaces bardic performance, and they do not get distraction, fascination, and inspire competance. But as written, it doesn't asy anywhere that they lose any of those abilities. And can a dervish dancer use masterpieces without bardic performance?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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When the next errata comes out, maybe it should say battle dance replaces bardic performance, and they do not get distraction, fascination, and inspire competance. But as written, it doesn't asy anywhere that they lose any of those abilities. And can a dervish dancer use masterpieces without bardic performance?
Actually, I retract my prior post, rereading the class and the explicit taking away of certain songs, they are supposed to get those three, so the text is in line with the intent. They'd work like a normal bard for those performance types. My oops on that, crossed it my head with the archeologist, which does sacrifice bardic performance in its entirety. The "sealing evidence" is that the dervish dancer trades individual abilities from the performance group, the archeologist does not.
I didn't have the rules for dervish dancers at the time I wrote dervish dancer (lead times and all), so they weren't addressed. Dervish dancers have rounds of bardic performance and can use bard spells, so they qualify for masterpieces. The dancing masterpieces certainly seem appropriate. Other ones can get pretty off-theme, but that's up to the player or designer to decide.