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I'm hoping this thread is useful, and gets stickied.
There are alot of 3pp materials out there, and not all of them have informative reviews.
Plus, some products have ugly covers, or just text on the cover, and my eyes just glaze over while I'm searching RPGnow, and I dont even notice them. OpenDesign and LPJ tend to attract my attention more than the others, simply because I find most of the other companies dont have very good cover design alot of the time.
A cover doesnt reflect the quality of the contents inside, necessarily, but a cover gets your attention.
So!
This thread is for recommending any 3pp that you read and found useful.
Give a short summary of why, and what you thought of the product, and any pitfalls it had. If its a magazine issue, like KQ, note the specific issue and why.
Provide a link if you can. Here, RPGNow, DriveThruRPG, whatever; but a link.
I'm going to ask that you dont advertise your own books here, in the interest of more objective suggestions.
I'm going to start.
101 New Skill Uses
This book gives a much needed expansion of skills. It provides more uses for the skills you have, and new skill DC guidelines. I recommend it to all pathfinder players everywhere.
I had seen it lots of times and never considered it, and got it because of all the good reviews I saw. The cover didnt draw me in. It wasnt ugly, but it didnt catch my attention either.
Super Genius Games Templar
I really like this class. It's a divine champion, but tied to a god instead of to an alignment. I haven't seen it in play, but it looks to be alot of fun. I don't care for paladins as an iconic, and I can see myself replacing paladins with these guys entirely.
I noticed this because of the cover, which frankly is unusual for SGG products for me. I didnt realize that alot of their stuff was OKCStevens, and I didnt look through many of their products due to what I considered to be really ugly covers. I simply don't like the typeface, borders, and logo much, and sometimes the cover art is really lackluster. I dont know. I find it looks low budget, and that tends to put me off. But I realize not everyone can afford to hire shiny graphic designers and hire an artist to do a cover for them.
But having read some of it? Phenomenal game design, really nice writing.
Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.
I generally skip the art and just read the description and reviews.
SGGs Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands is excellent. Provides a really cool new subsystem.
And Rite's 1001 Spells is going to be awesome. How can you not love a book with a Pointer spell that makes cats chase after it?
I can only hope my works are will some day be as lauded :-)
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Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.
Really, thats pretty cheap for what is likely 4-8 hours of work(or more, depending what you asked for). But if they dont do a background, and just put a character on the front (like alot of LPJ titles) I could see it being done in maybe 2h-4h.
I want to try my hand at putting out a couple things for PFRPG some day. I have some ideas and some word docs of typed stuff. We'll see how it goes though.
I think art is important. But at the price you mentioned, and the typical PDF Price of like 5$ or less, you need to sell at least 20 copies to pay for the art, and I can see where that might be problematic in some cases, particularly for a small publisher thats going all DIY, and not hiring on writers (one-man deals in particular) I can see how it would be hard to get quality art.
But if a product is by a 3pp and there are no reviews, it looks low budget, and I dont recognize the authors name? Hard to sell; I dont know what I'm getting. you know? With a hard copy in a store I can flip through the pages and skim the book to see if I like it before I pay for it, but thats not how PDFs work.
I generally skip the art and just read the description and reviews.
SGGs Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands is excellent. Provides a really cool new subsystem.
And Rite's 1001 Spells is going to be awesome. How can you not love a book with a Pointer spell that makes cats chase after it?
Those sound pretty cool. :)
Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.
Cheapest I've paid for a non-stockart cover is $30. Most I've paid is $250. Most of the prices I've been quoted are around $250. Hence why JBE uses stock art covers for our PDF products. There really is no guarantee that you'll make back the cost of a custom cover with a PDF. Granted there isn't a guarantee with a print cover either, but if you're going to spend money for printing, doing so for a cover as well is a good idea.
But you are right DH, a great cover will sell a book better than an average cover (all else being equal).
Also, I think I speak for every publisher here when I say, "Please feel free to post that as a review of the book. You don't need to do a huge massive review. Even those few short lines are great!"
Cheapest I've paid for a non-stockart cover is $30. Most I've paid is $250. Most of the prices I've been quoted are around $250. Hence why JBE uses stock art covers for our PDF products. There really is no guarantee that you'll make back the cost of a custom cover with a PDF. Granted there isn't a guarantee with a print cover either, but if you're going to spend money for printing, doing so for a cover as well is a good idea.
LPJ Design works very hard, VERY HARD, to keep art cost down. I usually can't use American artist do to the rates they want for artwork. Artists outside the US and Canada, work for about one-third to one-half the price of US artists, often with better quality. While in the early days of RPGs this was not an issue. But with the internet and the rise of interaction between people around the world, art cost have come down. A great example of what happens in the book, The World Is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman.
But you are right DH, a great cover will sell a book better than an average cover (all else being equal).
Making a great cover for a product must be the main focus, after actually writing the product, if you want to sell large amount. Covers sell books.
LMPjr took aur jerbs!!!!1ondone1!one
I was talking to Steve Russell of Rite the other day, and he mentioned how he wish he could pull a Raging Swan off.
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Cheapest I've paid for a non-stockart cover is $30. Most I've paid is $250. Most of the prices I've been quoted are around $250. Hence why JBE uses stock art covers for our PDF products. There really is no guarantee that you'll make back the cost of a custom cover with a PDF. Granted there isn't a guarantee with a print cover either, but if you're going to spend money for printing, doing so for a cover as well is a good idea.
If they're working for a flat rate, I dont see why they'd charge less than that (unless theyre a close personal friend and cutting you a break). Art takes time and effort.
Though (assuming you pay your writers this way) I imagine you could recruit someone for cheaper (up front) in exchange for a reasonable percentage of the profits.
LPJ Design works very hard, VERY HARD, to keep art cost down. I usually can't use American artist do to the rates they want for artwork. Artists outside the US and Canada, work for about one-third to one-half the price of US artists, often with better quality. While in the early days of RPGs this was not an issue. But with the internet and the rise of interaction between people around the world, art cost have come down.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement.
For someone who likes western art, the very eastern style art you guys often use is a bit of a turnoff. Up until I had read a bunch of Obsidian Twilight stuff, my reaction to the neo Exodus stuff was: "d20 Exalted (or BESM)? Why not just play exalted/besm?". But its still INFINITELY better than no art, or stuff thats poorly done.
I disagree with the better quality thing. No particular offense meant (as your material is quite good from what I've read), but none of your art comes even close to a Wayne Reynolds Piece (RPGs), or a Humberto Ramos Piece (Comics), or a Mike Krahulik Piece (4e, WoWTCG, Penny-Arcade), or a Brett Booth Piece (Also Comics).
Making a great cover for a product must be the main focus, after actually writing the product, if you want to sell large amount. Covers sell books.
This. One Hundred Times This.
It Doesnt matter if its a work of literary brilliance on the inside if you nobody notices the book enough to pick it up and read it.
I'd say *HALF* of an RPG book is the writing. the other half is the art. Alot of the time 3pp can feel like you're looking at a rough draft, or a hand-typed pirate copy. Looking Professional and High quality matters, so does fixing spelling and bad grammar.
Also, I think I speak for every publisher here when I say, "Please feel free to post that as a review of the book. You don't need to do a huge massive review. Even those few short lines are great!"
At RPGNow at least, you can't review a book without buying it. And if you bought it here, you can't post the review at RPGNow.
But unless you have a very well known author on the book, I'm probably not going to buy it blind.
Heh. this has turned from "advice on what to buy" to "advice to publishers for more sales".
But I'll sum up.
To Sell More:
1. Professional Appearance and Production. If you can manage awesome cover art, do it.
2. Big Name (Monte Cook, Jason Bulmahn, Sean K Reynolds. Owen K. C. Stevens). Make it prominent.
3. Give away a free copy. Make sure you have at least 1 review at any site youre selling it.
4. Decent Title and Description.
It may be obvious, but some 3pps aren't doing it, and I imagine thats why some dont seem to get any sales, while others get (relatively speaking) lots of sales.
Generally speaking, no one but SGG will have OKCStephens. Since he (essentially) is SGG. And I think the other three are pretty occupied right now.
Further, AFAIK, all publishers send out review copies. It's just that the big three reviewers (D_M, Endzeitgeist, and Megan Robertson (sp?)) are busy reviewing all the other books they received.
My experience with Comp Copies is that they are done at RPG Now, or drivethru (which really should just be the same thing >:| Not sure why they haven't merged yet.)
So most of those are already being done.
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Generally speaking, no one but SGG will have OKCStephens. Since he (essentially) is SGG. And I think the other three are pretty occupied right now.
I imagine they are, just saying that if you have a big name, you wanna make sure people see it.
Further, AFAIK, all publishers send out review copies. It's just that the big three reviewers (D_M, Endzeitgeist, and Megan Robertson (sp?)) are busy reviewing all the other books they received.
Alright. I made the comment because alot of the books I looked at had no reviews on RPGNow (where I happened to be buying them).
My experience with Comp Copies is that they are done at RPG Now, or drivethru (which really should just be the same thing >:| Not sure why they haven't merged yet.)
So most of those are already being done.
Okie dokie. well, in some cases it doesn't show (in that I didnt think it was being done).
Comp Copies?
Also, is there some reason that if something gets reviewed here, you cant put up the review at RPGNow? Worth talking to them about. It might divide the number of necessary reviewers by 3.
If there are only a couple reviewers I can see how that could be problematic. Are you only finding them on paizo.com? have you checked for reviewers on RPG.net or ENworld or GITP?
But for production, cover art matters, and so does the graphic design aspect.
I havent published any RPG products, but I've bought alot, and I'm a web designer on the side, so I do graphic design a fair bit. It matters.
Oh!
Also;
Page Formatting:
There are 4 things people seem to want:
1. Printer Friendly. (Not Ink-Greedy)
2. Full Color Awesomeness.
3. Easy on RAM. (for Ipads and such)
34 Monitor Friendly. (Ideally widescreen friendly).
LPJ Tends to manage the 1st three in a single pdf.
Few Publishers manage #4, and alot of PDF use is on laptops nowadays.
It would be appreciated and likely worth the effort to give a bundle and hand out print and monitor copies, and two print copies if one is Ink-Greedy.
Its done sometimes by some publishers, but its not common. I mean, its one of the things I keep seeing people ask Paizo for too.
At RPGNow at least, you can't review a book without buying it. And if you bought it here, you can't post the review at RPGNow.
But you can post these:
This book gives a much needed expansion of skills. It provides more uses for the skills you have, and new skill DC guidelines. I recommend it to all pathfinder players everywhere.Super Genius Games Templar
I really like this class. It's a divine champion, but tied to a god instead of to an alignment. I haven't seen it in play, but it looks to be alot of fun. I don't care for paladins as an iconic, and I can see myself replacing paladins with these guys entirely.
as a review on Paizo. These are great reviews. Posting them on this thread is going to have little long term impact. Posting them as a review on the individual product reviews section goes a long way.
Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.Really, thats pretty cheap for what is likely 4-8 hours of work(or more, depending what you asked for). But if they dont do a background, and just put a character on the front (like alot of LPJ titles) I could see it being done in maybe 2h-4h.
I want to try my hand at putting out a couple things for PFRPG some day. I have some ideas and some word docs of typed stuff. We'll see how it goes though.
I think art is important. But at the price you mentioned, and the typical PDF Price of like 5$ or less, you need to sell at least 20 copies to pay for the art, and I can see where that might be problematic in some cases, particularly for a small publisher thats going all DIY, and not hiring on writers (one-man deals in particular) I can see how it would be hard to get quality art.
But if a product is by a 3pp and there are no reviews, it looks low budget, and I dont recognize the authors name? Hard to sell; I dont know what I'm getting. you know? With a hard copy in a store I can flip through the pages and skim the book to see if I like it before I pay for it, but thats not how PDFs work.
Those sound pretty cool. :)I generally skip the art and just read the description and reviews.
SGGs Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands is excellent. Provides a really cool new subsystem.
And Rite's 1001 Spells is going to be awesome. How can you not love a book with a Pointer spell that makes cats chase after it?
I charge anywhere from $20 to $50 for art most of the time depending on how complex the picture is to draw. I do mostly color pieces. So there are cheaper alternatives out there. I did the baby blue dragon for Owen free of charge just to get my name out there. I keep my price cheaper to get more third party publishers the chance to include color art for their products.
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I charge anywhere from $20 to $50 for art most of the time depending on how complex the picture is to draw. I do mostly color pieces. So there are cheaper alternatives out there. I did the baby blue dragon for Owen free of charge just to get my name out there.
Ah yes. I forgot.
I was assuming well established artists.
If your budget is smaller, you always have the option of talent that is newer, because they will want to get their name out there.
Its a good way to support newer artists, too.
But sometimes, for 20-50, you get what you pay for. So I'd suggest looking at some of the work the artist has done.
I charge anywhere from $20 to $50 for art most of the time depending on how complex the picture is to draw. I do mostly color pieces. So there are cheaper alternatives out there. I did the baby blue dragon for Owen free of charge just to get my name out there.Ah yes. I forgot.
I was assuming well established artists.
If your budget is smaller, you always have the option of talent that is newer, because they will want to get their name out there.
Its a good way to support newer artists, too.
But sometimes, for 20-50, you get what you pay for. So I'd suggest looking at some of the work the artist has done.
That is always why you check places like Deviant Art to see an idea what to expect. I always offer my first piece free just to get my foot in the door if they like the piece then they can commission more from me. It also gives them a preview of my style and the work I do. A lot of newer artists like myself can't expect a third party publisher to pay 80-100 dollars per piece in this economy. That is why I price low, some work is better than none. The main problem with new talent and I have made this mistake myself, is biting off more than you can chew.
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That is always why you check places like Deviant Art to see an idea what to expect.
Yeah. I'm going to have to update my (very outdated) dA gallery, or put up my own gallery, and link it from my dA.
You want to see samples of what they can do, and be sure they can do what youre asking for.
I always offer my first piece free just to get my foot in the door if they like the piece then they can commission more from me. It also gives them a preview of my style and the work I do.
Thats really cheap man. You can't make a living that way. I can maybe see it starting out, but eventually you need to set a price floor.
A lot of newer artists like myself can't expect a third party publisher to pay 80-100 dollars per piece in this economy. That is why I price low, some work is better than none.
Well, if you illustrate the whole PDF, getting 80-100% of what the author makes from the publisher would be another payment approach. So if the author would have gotten 100% of the profits, maybe a 40/60 split. Art matters. I'd say it matters almost as much as the writing. (I'm assuming your art guy is also the graphic designer).
The main problem with new talent and I have made this mistake myself, is biting off more than you can chew.
Yeah. Thats pretty exhausting.
A lot of newer artists like myself can't expect a third party publisher to pay 80-100 dollars per piece in this economy. That is why I price low, some work is better than none.Well, if you illustrate the whole PDF, getting 80-100% of what the author makes from the publisher would be another payment approach. So if the author would have gotten 100% of the profits, maybe a 40/60 split. Art matters. I'd say it matters almost as much as the writing.
I don't think it'd work like that. People are generally buying the products for the mechanics or fluff, not for the art. Good art is nice. But I'd rather have good mechanics, and the artist getting 40% is really high.
Plus, the general way of getting paid is By Word. I think the average is 2 cents a word? Maybe a bit higher.
That is always why you check places like Deviant Art to see an idea what to expect.Yeah. I'm going to have to update my (very outdated) dA gallery, or put up my own gallery, and link it from my dA.
You want to see samples of what they can do, and be sure they can do what youre asking for.
I always offer my first piece free just to get my foot in the door if they like the piece then they can commission more from me. It also gives them a preview of my style and the work I do.Thats really cheap man. You can't make a living that way. I can maybe see it starting out, but eventually you need to set a price floor.
A lot of newer artists like myself can't expect a third party publisher to pay 80-100 dollars per piece in this economy. That is why I price low, some work is better than none.Well, if you illustrate the whole PDF, getting 80-100% of what the author makes from the publisher would be another payment approach. So if the author would have gotten 100% of the profits, maybe a 40/60 split. Art matters. I'd say it matters almost as much as the writing. (I'm assuming your art guy is also the graphic designer).
The main problem with new talent and I have made this mistake myself, is biting off more than you can chew.Yeah. Thats pretty exhausting.
Redmonkey-da is my Deviant Art account feel free to give it a look. I always enjoy the comments.
As far as making a living at it I need to get my name out there first. I'm not Boris or Wayne Reynolds, so I price lower. Once I get more demand and can put up the quality my customers want and make deadlines then I can go up from there.@LPJ not all of us charge an arm and a leg for their work. :)
But I'll sum up.
To Sell More:
1. Professional Appearance and Production. If you can manage awesome cover art, do it.
2. Big Name (Monte Cook, Jason Bulmahn, Sean K Reynolds. Owen K. C. Stevens). Make it prominent.
Generally speaking, no one but SGG will have OKCStephens. Since he (essentially) is SGG. And I think the other three are pretty occupied right now.
I'm not sure that's true, Cheapy. For example, OKCStephens' name still shows up in Paizo products fairly often (I'm not sure when the last one was but I know he's credited in Ultimate Magic and that's post-SGG). And he's done a fair amount of WotC work (though again I don;t know when the last one was).
Unless you mean SGG is the only 3pp that will have OKCStephens, which come to think of it probably what you meant. But even that may not be true. He seems pretty chummy with Rite. And I've even talked to him about me paying him for writing something for me for my own game (not to publish), and he was happy to quote me a price.
I couldn't afford it, but he was willing and available. I imagine any 3pp who wanted to shuck out big-company per-word costs could hire him. Of course it may be no one else can afford him either, which would make Cheapy's comment functionally accurate. I'm not sure why I wanted to reply anymore. ;D
I noticed this because of the cover, which frankly is unusual for SGG products for me. I didnt realize that alot of their stuff was OKCStevens, and I didnt look through many of their products due to what I considered to be really ugly covers. I simply don't like the typeface, borders, and logo much, and sometimes the cover art is really lackluster.
Weird. I actually love most of SGG's covers. Power of the Ninja is awesome-looking! But there is, I suppose, no accounting for taste.
But having read some of it? Phenomenal game design, really nice writing.
Here I agree with you, and it applies to nearly everything SGG does. And when I'm less satisfied with the writing, it's almost always because OKCStephens didn't write it. (Although I am also a huge fan of Sam Hing's Mythic Menagerie SGG books)
I've tried my hand at the design side and writing the piece is harder to me than the rules crunch. That is why I prefer to stay on the art side of most things.
My goal is to offer really nice art for an affordable price and am willing to work with just about anyone. I would do Stock Art but I am not sure how to go about it.
D_G, yea, I meant 3rd party stuff. His and Steve's stuff (from Rite) tend to complement each other, but AFAIK Steve has never mentioned to me that they actually work together. Although that may have changed with 101 Renegade Feats...
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I don't think it'd work like that. People are generally buying the products for the mechanics or fluff, not for the art. Good art is nice. But I'd rather have good mechanics, and the artist getting 40% is really high.
It was an example price, and 40% is probably the upper end. But I was saying that illustrating the whole book should reasonably pay 60-100% what it costs to have the book written. The art isn't half the value of a pdf, but I could see a third, or a little more than a third.
Unless the crunch is REALLY good (Trailblazer for 3.5.frex.
Redmonkey-da is my Deviant Art account feel free to give it a look. I always enjoy the comments.
As far as making a living at it I need to get my name out there first. I'm not Boris or Wayne Reynolds, so I price lower. Once I get more demand and can put up the quality my customers want and make deadlines then I can go up from there.@LPJ not all of us charge an arm and a leg for their work. :)
Very true.
Just saying that you can't keep your prices that low forever if you want it to ever be a significant source of income.
My dA is sylrae. But it hasn't been updated since 2007. Though I have a couple decent things up there.
My new stuff tends to be better, but I dont have any web galleries of it. lol. I'll be making sure I put an updated gallery together before I try to take on any commissions or anything.
Plus, the general way of getting paid is By Word. I think the average is 2 cents a word? Maybe a bit higher.
I think its 3 cents a word. But yeah. And under that model, pricing by art piece is the standard. Its also cheaper, for those making decent profits.
For those making less profit overall, a percentage might be more affordable. But if the product ends up selling really well, the artist/author might get more. And it means a steady but slow trickling income over time, instead of a single payment.
[Edit] to clarify, I'm not necessarily saying the artist should get 40% of the profits.
I'm saying that (with a heavily illustrated book, like say WoD), I would say its pretty reasonable for the artist to want to get paid as much or nearly as much as you paid the author.
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As for Power of the Ninja, the image is very nice.
But I think the box at the top of the frame at the top that holds the text "Ultimate Options", and the "Ultimate Options" typeface and coloring are quite ugly and kindof get in the way.
**Reasonable, with those numbers in the post above, is not considering the effort going into either task, as I dont know how long it would take to write a book in comparison to how long it would take to draw all the art for the same book, having not done any rigorous comparisons, but more like: In my opinion as a customer, for a well laid out, well illustrated, professional looking book, I would pay double what I'd be willing to pay for the same text as an ugly looking word document.
Like: I would not have been willing to pay 50$ for the Pathfinder Core book, had it been only text. Especially if the book had been ugly inside as well. I probably wouldnt have gone higher than 20.
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I think its 3 cents a word. But yeah. And under that model, pricing by art piece is the standard. Its also cheaper, for those making decent profits.
Here is a little some thing to scare you about 3 cent a word pay rates. At 3 cents a word a 10,000 word project (roughly 20 page PDF) will cost you $300, just for the writing. A 20 page PDF will sell for $3.50 to $4. Once you figure in RPGNow or Paizon cut (between 25 to 35%) you make $2.30 to $3 for each one you sell.
Now here is the scary news, MOST PDFs don't sell more than 100 copies per project. So based of the facts above you will make between $230 to $300. So you might break even if you are lucky. BUT...
...I have not even figured the cost of layout, editing and art to this example. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing, PDF edition.
...I have not even figured the cost of layout, editing and art to this example. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing, PDF edition.
Which is part of why so much of Dreamscarred's material is written in-house... And uses open community playtesting (which tends to help catch typos, too).
Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.Really, thats pretty cheap for what is likely 4-8 hours of work(or more, depending what you asked for). But if they dont do a background, and just put a character on the front (like alot of LPJ titles) I could see it being done in maybe 2h-4h.
We usually pay $150 for a full-color original cover piece. And I know that any of our cover artists will say that a piece of quality art for a cover is a LOT more than 4-8 hours of work. Just sayin'. :)
@Hunter what do you pay for color interior art?
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We usually pay $150 for a full-color original cover piece. And I know that any of our cover artists will say that a piece of quality art for a cover is a LOT more than 4-8 hours of work. Just sayin'. :)Art is extremely expensive! I think a custom cover goes for 80 or 100 dollars.Really, thats pretty cheap for what is likely 4-8 hours of work(or more, depending what you asked for). But if they dont do a background, and just put a character on the front (like alot of LPJ titles) I could see it being done in maybe 2h-4h.
Absolutely! Heck, I've spent 3 or 4 hours on plenty of BW illustration!
Speaking as a writer/designer, a graphic artist and an illustrator, I think ALL are very important to a product. Leave out any of the three, or skimp out on any of the three and you get an inferior result ... and people WILL recognize that lack of quality.
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I think its 3 cents a word. But yeah. And under that model, pricing by art piece is the standard. Its also cheaper, for those making decent profits.Here is a little some thing to scare you about 3 cent a word pay rates. At 3 cents a word a 10,000 word project (roughly 20 page PDF) will cost you $300, just for the writing. A 20 page PDF will sell for $3.50 to $4. Once you figure in RPGNow or Paizon cut (between 25 to 35%) you make $2.30 to $3 for each one you sell.
Now here is the scary news, MOST PDFs don't sell more than 100 copies per project. So based of the facts above you will make between $230 to $300. So you might break even if you are lucky. BUT...
...I have not even figured the cost of layout, editing and art to this example. Welcome to the world of RPG publishing, PDF edition.
.........
Ouch.
I'm guessing you manage by not hiring people at 3 cents a word? How do you do it, really?
All I'm thinking is I'm glad I can write, and do layout and art, and I just need to do editing. I may or may not be able to put out big corp quality stuff, but at least I wont go in the red writing the thing. It will just take me a long time to do it all myself.
As for 4-8h, I was assuming a fairly simple cover. I've dont paintings, and digital stuff and whatnot, and it can definitely take much longer than that. Depends on the level of detail required.
If the background is just a texture with some characters in front of it? You might be able to do it in 4-8, leaning toward the 8 mark.
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At RPGNow at least, you can't review a book without buying it. And if you bought it here, you can't post the review at RPGNow.But you can post these:
This book gives a much needed expansion of skills. It provides more uses for the skills you have, and new skill DC guidelines. I recommend it to all pathfinder players everywhere.as a review on Paizo. These are great reviews. Posting them on this thread is going to have little long term impact. Posting them as a review on the individual product reviews section goes a long way.Super Genius Games Templar
I really like this class. It's a divine champion, but tied to a god instead of to an alignment. I haven't seen it in play, but it looks to be alot of fun. I don't care for paladins as an iconic, and I can see myself replacing paladins with these guys entirely.
I DID REMEMBER! lol
Ouch.
I'm guessing you manage by not hiring people at 3 cents a word? How do you do it, really?
We pay what we can afford, do a lot of stock art product at the beginning or do no art projects. Now after 10 years of doing this our email list is QUITE large and our choice of products (well over 500) make it easier we are able to sell more than the typical 100 copies a beginning RPG company will sell. Like with anything, you find ways to make it work.
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We pay what we can afford, do a lot of stock art product at the beginning or do no art projects. Now after 10 years of doing this our email list is QUITE large and our choice of products (well over 500) make it easier we are able to sell more than the typical 100 copies a beginning RPG company will sell. Like with anything, you find ways to make it work.Ouch.
I'm guessing you manage by not hiring people at 3 cents a word? How do you do it, really?
Hmm. Good to know.
You guys were around in 2001?
Raging Swan Press
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LMPjr took aur jerbs!!!!1ondone1!one
I was talking to Steve Russell of Rite the other day, and he mentioned how he wish he could pull a Raging Swan off.
I guess I'll take that as a compliment!
I talked a bit about this in my recent Pathways interview, but I essentially think that (particulrly with PDFs) having expensive covers is a waste of time and effort. I know why I as a publisher want an awesome cover - it attracts people to buy my product - but I'm not sure what the consumer gets out of a cover. You inevitably have to pay more to own the PDF (because the publisher is looking to recoup his costs) and really the cover has no bearing on the quality of the product. I'd rather keep my costs down and pass the savings onto the consumer. After all would you rather pay $3.99 or $4.99 for a PDF if the only difference was a nice cover?
Of course, I know that some people may think twice about buying a Raging Swan product because of my crazy cover scheme and that's why I offer free samples of every product I produce over at ragingswan.com.
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I'm guessing you manage by not hiring people at 3 cents a word? How do you do it, really?All I'm thinking is I'm glad I can write, and do layout and art, and I just need to do editing.
A word of advice. Never do your own editing. If you want to go cheap, have a friend do it. Otherwise, bite the bullet and offer the editor a little cut of the profits.
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I'm guessing you manage by not hiring people at 3 cents a word? How do you do it, really?All I'm thinking is I'm glad I can write, and do layout and art, and I just need to do editing.
A word of advice. Never do your own editing. If you want to go cheap, have a friend do it. Otherwise, bite the bullet and offer the editor a little cut of the profits.
Yes.
You are extremely familiar with your own work.
You will miss a ton of errors.
I talked a bit about this in my recent Pathways interview, but I essentially think that (particulrly with PDFs) having expensive covers is a waste of time and effort. I know why I as a publisher want an awesome cover - it attracts people to buy my product - but I'm not sure what the consumer gets out of a cover. You inevitably have to pay more to own the PDF (because the publisher is looking to recoup his costs) and really the cover has no bearing on the quality of the product. I'd rather keep my costs down and pass the savings onto the consumer. After all would you rather pay $3.99 or $4.99 for a PDF if the only difference was a nice cover?
People like pretty looking things. I would say ALWAYS. I think it is coded in our DNA. Now what defines "pretty" or "attractive" is a whole different conversation. But presentation is important. You can make the best tasting steak of all times but if you serve it on a garabage can lid not many are going to take a bite.
I think a minimalist elegance can be attractive and I think Raging Swan covers manage to capture that.
Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of your work, both graphic design and gaming design. But, not everyone can pull off what you have done.
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Raging Swan Press
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I think a minimalist elegance can be attractive and I think Raging Swan covers manage to capture that.Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of your work, both graphic design and gaming design. But, not everyone can pull off what you have done.
Thanks very much! Looks like I owe you a beer if we ever meet for those kind words. I agree that people like attractive things - we definitely buy with our eyes. One of the other reasons I went with very plain covers is that I like simple, clean things in my gaming products. Less is more for me, and I think with gaming products the design should sink into the background; it shouldn't confuse the reader or get in the way of the actual text.
I expect part of the reason for this is that I'm rather colourblind and complicated colour schemes or patterns make my head hurt!
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Raging Swan Press
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Yes.
You are extremely familiar with your own work.
You will miss a ton of errors.
I agree and I disagree with this statement. Most of Raging Swan's products are edited by at least three people. That doesn't mean the designer shouldn't edit and polish his own text - god knows I can obsess about the smallest details in my work. I also find when editing my own stuff that if I leave text for two weeks or so, I come back to it with fresh eyes, which helps me catch lots of errors. My other editors luckily are very good . Luckily they are jolly pedantic, often challenging me to rework a section I previously thought was fine. I'm very grateful to them - they've spotted some howlers!
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A word of advice. Never do your own editing. If you want to go cheap, have a friend do it. Otherwise, bite the bullet and offer the editor a little cut of the profits.
Yeah. I mistyped.
I separated editing specifically because its the part I cannot do myself.
As cheapy mentioned, the author of something always makes a terrible editor, because if he wrote something down unclearly, or missed something, his mind fills in the gaps since he's so familiar with the material.
The result is you don't catch all of your errors.
Thats not saying that I think proofreading is a waste of time. But after proofreading it a couple times, you need to pass it off to someone else to rad it over and look for problems, for sure.
LMPjr took aur jerbs!!!!1ondone1!one
I was talking to Steve Russell of Rite the other day, and he mentioned how he wish he could pull a Raging Swan off.
I guess I'll take that as a compliment!
I talked a bit about this in my recent Pathways interview, but I essentially think that (particulrly with PDFs) having expensive covers is a waste of time and effort. I know why I as a publisher want an awesome cover - it attracts people to buy my product - but I'm not sure what the consumer gets out of a cover...
Of course, I know that some people may think twice about buying a Raging Swan product because of my crazy cover scheme and that's why I offer free samples of every product I produce over at ragingswan.com.
I think the Raging Swan books are an amazing example of how to make a professional looking cover without expensive art.
I won't say art is a waste of time; but if you're short on budget, some quality layout, and good typefacing, can also make a professional looking product.
The Raging Swan stuff is minimalist but looks very classy.
But as a tiny thumbnail on DTRPG or RPGNow? It's not as bold or eye-catching as a quality illustration, and that may mean some people don't notice it, and miss it.
But as LMPjr noted, Presentation is important; and not everyone can pull off a Raging Swan.
Maybe you can skimp on art, but that makes your graphic design all the more important.
I realize I seemed to be mainly talking about art above, but I tend to see art and graphic design as two parts of the same thing. I'm not used to working on presentable products with a group of people, so I end up doing my own writing, my own layout, my own graphic design, and when needed, my own artwork. So yes, you can go minimalist, in which case, I'd suggest looking at some free online guides to web design. They do a pretty good job explaining quality graphic design for sites, and bad design, and those things will transfer pretty well to graphic design elsewhere.
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tl;dr:
Presentation is important.
Style, Layout, and Art matter.
If you skimp on art, or forego it entirely, then you need to put more emphasis on quality Style and Layout.
I could start listing 3pp pdfs, and things that came off poorly when I looked at them, and how they could have been done better (and whether or not they convinced me not to buy them), but people may get offended at specific criticisms.
And people can make the argument: "This guy hasn't published any books, what does he know!?", but layout and graphic design for the web isn't all that different than for publishing (there are some things you need to keep in mind for mediums, such as no scrolling, and page/screen sizes and such) and it seems the publishers with better presented materials are agreeing with me.
@ LPJ and Ragin Swan: What do you guys do your layouts and such in? Do you use inDesign? Illustrator? MS Word (no joke, you can do some pretty professional looking stuff in MS Word if you know what you're doing)?
I'm also curious to know: Do you have someone write a document without any layout and design considerations and then do the layour and design after, or do you go more like the web design route, of having them done simultaneously, so the layout is getting done as the document is being written?
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Raging Swan Press
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@ LPJ and Ragin Swan: What do you guys do your layouts and such in? Do you use inDesign? Illustrator? MS Word (no joke, you can do some pretty professional looking stuff in MS Word if you know what you're doing)?
Word 2007 - you can do some amazing stuff with Word. I'm sure that inDesign, Publisher and suchlike do stuff that Word doesn't do, but I doubt those differences make the massive difference in price worthwhile/a sensible business expense.
@ LPJ and Ragin Swan: What do you guys do your layouts and such in? Do you use inDesign? Illustrator? MS Word (no joke, you can do some pretty professional looking stuff in MS Word if you know what you're doing)?
I have been a graphic designer for nearly 20 years and I use InDesign for layout. The best thing I can suggest to anyone looking to understand layout, check out Robin Williams' The Non-Design's graphic Design book. This is a great book for beginners. Great stuff on every page.
I'm also curious to know: Do you have someone write a document without any layout and design considerations and then do the layour and design after, or do you go more like the web design route, of having them done simultaneously, so the layout is getting done as the document is being written?
I let people write and I make the design fit it. It just works better for me.
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Word 2007 - you can do some amazing stuff with Word. I'm sure that inDesign, Publisher and suchlike do stuff that Word doesn't do, but I doubt those differences make the massive difference in price worthwhile/a sensible business expense.
I hear you.
I use word 2010 for most of my stuff, and then a plugin to print it to PDF.
I have an educational copy of Illustrator and Photoshop though, and I often have to make adjustments to the pdf with Illustrator, because the plugin I have tends to like to mangle my images.
Do you have any suggestions for printing to PDF?
Also: for Art programs, if you can't get a copy on Photoshop because of the cost: Painttool Sai (for doing art with a Wacom Tablet) is like 50$, and well worth the money. I hear Inkscape is good for making Vector-Based Art, though I haven't had a chance to work with it yet. And there is also GIMP which is the free photoshop replacement for linux, with a windows version available as well. They all get the job done, and some are cheap/free.
And if you can't afford some of the pricey fonts (and my god can they be pricey), there are some free font editors out there that you could use to make your own font.
I could start listing 3pp pdfs, and things that came off poorly when I looked at them, and how they could have been done better (and whether or not they convinced me not to buy them), but people may get offended at specific criticisms.
If you have any of JBE's books, I've love to hear them. I'm always open to criticism.
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Raging Swan Press
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But as a tiny thumbnail on DTRPG or RPGNow? It's not as bold or eye-catching as a quality illustration, and that may...
It's my fond hope that the difference of the cover - matt black mixed in with so many colourful, traditional covers makes Raging Swan's stand out. Sadly, of course, it's impossible to tell! I absolutely take your point, though, that people could miss me through my minimalism.
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"The best thing I can suggest to anyone looking to understand layout, check out Robin Williams' The Non-Design's graphic Design book. This is a great book for beginners. Great stuff on every page.
Solid. There are probably some good web resources as well, but I imagine this is great to have on hand for easy reference material.
I have been a graphic designer for nearly 20 years and I use InDesign for layout.
I need to pick up and learn InDesign. It's the industry standard for print stuff, but as mentioned above, Adobe Products are *Very* Expensive.
I let people write and I make the design fit it. It just works better for me.
I imagine thats the way it usually works when you hire a writer. I've been doing graphic design for the past 10 years or so (going back to my time in highschool), pdf stuff for my own purposes, some web stuff for myself, and I've designed maybe a dozen websites for money. I'm used to having to be a one-man-show, so I end up doing layout and writing simultaneously.
If you have any of JBE's books, I've love to hear them. I'm always open to criticism.
Unfortunately, I don't. Book of Magic is in my RPGnow wishlist, but I haven't got the money to pick up more books at the moment. Ahh being a university student. lol.
Soo. I've grabbed the preview of your River Kingdoms Mass combat book.
I'm not going to comment on the contents, just the layout and such.
The document looks like it was made in MS Word. Now using MS Word is fine, but I'm not sure you want your PDF to ~look~ like it was made in a word processor. the suggestions I give are all going to be things you can do in MS Word.
Font: Pretty much everything is in Arial. It would help if you used a different font for headers, to make them more distinctive.
Borders: The borders on the outside edges are a bit on the big side, and would probably look better if they were like half the width, or maybe faded out toward the text.
Square Images: Having some images with transparency, with the text wrapping around them, instead of block images, I think, would improve the look. For the black and white image of the archers about to shoot the reader, for example, you could touch up the tops of the bows (to close the unfinished lines), put the image at the bottom of the page, in the center, with text on the top, left and right of the image, and use transparency to have the text come closer to the black lines, and it would look better.
I mentioned it as an improvement, but I'd like to point out more specifically, that it often looks better to not have all your images fit into a single column. Images that span multiple columns, or images between columns, can improve the look of a page.
Text: The headers "The Army Statblock" for example. It would be easier to read, if the header was a bigger font than the paragraph text, instead of just paragraph text, bolded. Perhaps with a border on the bottom, to give a line all the way across the column, but thats not strictly necessary.
If you're not doing it already, I'd highly advise using MS Word Font-Styles.
And if something almost but doesnt quite fit on a page the way you want it to, you can play with font width a little bit, font spacing, and line spacing, or adjust font sizes by fractions of a point, to get things to fit the way you want them to and look good. I usually leave that until the end.
Page Number: It would be helpful if the pages were numbered, somewhere.
Background: A page background would likely improve the look of the document. You could have it only cover the header and footer if you like.
Colors: your art is all in black and white, the thing on the side ofthe page is kinda brownish, and your sidebars are blue. I havent seen the whole document, and maybe its working for you, but I'd change the color scheme. Either make them match more, or make them further away from grey.
Artwork: I get that it may not always be an option, but a consistent art style really helps in the appearance of a book.
On the first page is this sortof fuzzily designed greyscale image painted in photoshop with a mouse. Not bad looking, but its a pretty distinct style. On the third page you have this crisp, bold, black and white lineart, and on the final page you've got more photoshop painted art, of some undead children. Its not a very consistent look-and-feel.
Personally I think if you're going to go black and white art, you should go with the crisp bold stuff. It looks much nicer. Skip the greyscale, go with lineart. A few of the nWoD books use Lineart over greyscale in some of their newer stuff, but its usually lineart over a black and white photomanipulation, and its pretty hit and miss for them too when they do it.
A consistent art style is good for a book. I find it jarring if I'm reading an RPG book and the artwork suddenly goes from serious and realistic to highly cartoony, or from amazing artwork to a crappy sketch.
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Raging Swan Press
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I could start listing 3pp pdfs, and things that came off poorly when I looked at them, and how they could have been done better (and whether or not they convinced me not to buy them), but people may get offended at specific criticisms.If you have any of JBE's books, I've love to hear them. I'm always open to criticism.
I'm always keen for feedback. If you've got any of Raging Swan's stuff fire away! If not, I'll send you some.