Hey everyone. I'm new to the forums, but I wanted to share with you all my updated version of the Pathfinder Duskblade. I have always enjoyed using this class in 3.5, and I really wanted to find a suitable conversion for it in pathfinder. The following is the 'revised' class features of the duskblade that I have improved, subtracted, and expanded upon. Near the end of my post, I will address some of the changes I've made and explain why this version is much more balanced, fair, and playable. I hope you all enjoy it.
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BAB: Full
Fort: Good
Reflex: Poor
Will: Good
Hit Die: D8
The Duskblade’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Starting gold: 4d6 x 10
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A duskblade is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields). A duskblade can cast duskblade spells while wearing light armor, medium armor, or while using a light shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a duskblade wearing heavy armor, or using a heavy shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass duskblade still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells: A duskblade casts arcane spells drawn from the duskblade spell list. They can cast any spell they know without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a duskblade must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a duskblade’s spell is 10 + the spell level + their Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a duskblade can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Their base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, they receive bonus spells per day if they have a high Intelligence score.
A duskblade’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A duskblade begins play knowing five 0-level spells and one1st-level spell of their choice. At each new duskblade level, they gains one new spell of any level they can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a duskblade knows is not affected by her Intelligence score; the numbers are fixed.)
Cantrips: Duskblades learn cantrips, or 0-level spells. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again. (learned Level 1)
Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal. (learned Level 1)
Somatic Weaponry: When wielding a weapon (or holding an item of comparable size) in one or both hands, Duskblades can use that item to trace the somatic component of a spell, rather than using their fingers. This allows them to cast spells with somatic components even while their hands are full or occupied, as long as at least one hand is holding an item of proper size. (learned Level 1)
Arcane Channeling: Beginning at 3rd level, a duskblade can deliver a touch spell through their weapon with a melee attack as part of a standard or full attack action, but only for one attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. If the attack misses, the spell still remains charged on the weapon until a successful melee attack is made, or until another spell is channeled through the weapon. If the touch spell has a longer duration, then the spell remains channeled in the weapon until that duration ends, or until a duskblade casts another spell. A duskblade cannot channel spells for attacks of opportunity.
At 7th level, a duskblade can channel a second touch spell as part of a full attack action, although a duskblade cannot channel the same spell twice during a round.
At 13th level, a duskblade can channel a third touch spell as part of a full attack action.
At 19th level, a duskblade can channel a touch spell into each melee attack they make during that round.
Mettle: At 5th level, a duskblade can use mental and physical resiliency to avoid certain attacks. If they make a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, they instead avoids the effect entirely. This ability can only be used if the duskblade is wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor (although it can be used in heavy armor if the duskblade becomes proficient in heavy armor). A helpless duskblade does not gain the benefit of the mettle ability.
Bonus Feats: At 5th level, a duskblade gains Combat Casting as a bonus feat. At 11th level, a duskblade gains Spell Penetration as a bonus feat, and at 17th level gains Greater Spell Penetration as a bonus feat.
Armor Training: At 9th level, a duskblade can cast spells in heavy armor and/or with a heavy shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Mastery of Elements: At 15th level, a duskblade can alter a spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. This ability can be used with arcane channeling.
(The duskblade spell list - A duskblade can learn any spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list in 3.5 or Pathfinder that are under the schools of Necromancy, Conjuration, Illusion, and Evocation, but can only learn spells that require standard actions to cast; furthermore, a duskblade learns their cantrip spells from any school from the sorcerer/wizard spell list in 3.5 or Pathfinder)
(Final Notes: A duskblades spell progression and spells per day remain the same from the 3.5 charts, with the exception of having only 5 cantrip spells and one 1st level spell at level 1)
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Okay, before I start getting any heat, let me explain what I have done first. For starters, I'd like to address the skill list first. Typically speaking, most would argue that a duskblade should get 'acrobatics' as a skill, however, I totally disagree. Acrobatics is designed for nimble classes, which is something I personally don't think fits with a duskblade. My idea was to combine skills from a wizard, magus, and fighter into one single class, and if many of you might remember, even the lowly fighter from 3.5 had 'jump' as a class skill (which would basically translate to 'acrobatics' in pathfinder...yet the fighter did NOT get that as a skill). As such, I don't feel that the duskblade should get it either.
Furthermore, I decided to limit the duskblades skills to those of an Inquisitor simply because I feel like the other areas of study simply don't fit a class that's designed to master 'sword and spell'. Of course, for those of you who like to use the Knowledge Devotion Feat, rest assured that there is still nothing wrong with that as you do learn an extra knowledge as a class feature from the feat (which means u CAN add knowledge (local) to the duskblade's skill list).
Now then, allow me to address the lack of 'quick cast'. For me, the ability to use quick cast simply was NOT a combatiable ability for a spellcaster who uses a sword. It simply gave the class too much of something it didn't really need, so I decided instead to cut it out completely and instead add other benefits to compensate for it.
Next up: why no spell power? The reasoning is simple: Spell Penetration and Great Spell Pen are now class features. Enough said (which makes sense because the duskblade is an 'offensive caster')
Why only a d8 HD? Because d10 is simply too strong for a class that already gets two good saves, full BAB, and the ability to cast arcane spells.
Why did I change 'Arcane Channeling'? Because this 'new version' is simply more balanced and makes good use of the ENORMOUS amount of spells that a Duskblade gets per day. Instead of 'breaking the game' by casing only one spell a round and getting the benefits for EVERY attack back in 3.5, this new version requires players to spend MORE spells to get the benefit (which really does make more sense).
Why Somatic Weaponry? Because a duskblade SHOULD be able to hold a weapon (even two-handed weapons) and still cast their spells. It simply makes more sense (which is also why Eschew Materials is also gained as well).
Why Mettle? It fits the class perfectly: a master of body and mind if you will, which is exactly what Mettle provides (and it also helps to make the class more well-rounded).
Why Mastery of Elements? Other classes get HUGE benefits as the go up in level, so the duskblade needs a way to keep his damage output good. In later levels, elemental damage because almost worthless UNLESS you have the power to change the elemental type. This just means that the duskblade can still compete in later levels, which is why I consider it fair (plus, I think it's very reasonable for a duskblade to master such an ability, as he typically uses 'destructive magic' through his blade).
Why Armor Training Heavy? Because a duskblade is a fighter, and as such, needs to keep his options open. Personally, I would never wear Heavy armor (or medium for that matter) since I normally prefer keeping my movement speed. However, I realize that other players might enjoy a more 'sturdy' duskblade, and using 'sword and board' is actually very viable now.
Why oh WHY is the duskblade spell list expanded AND condensed? The answer is simple: duskblade's need more options, but less versatility. I decided to limit the duskblade's ability to learn spells from more versatile schools and instead focused him more on being defensive for himself, or offensive for himself. The player still has A LOT of power to customize his duskblade in any way they see fit, but this version simply lessens the duskblade's ability to be overly busted.
Why only schools of necromancy, evocation, illusion, and conjuration? Again, I found those schools to be most appropriate for a duskblade to caste. Enchantment and divination is more like 'oracle' magic, while abjuration is simply meh. However, transmutation can just get totally silly, which is why I don't think duskblades should have it. Besides, the majority of touch spells are in the four schools of magic granted in this 'new version' anyway, so there really isn't much room to complain in my opinion.
And finally, I wanted to submit to everyone an UPDATED version of the Knowledge Devotion feat:
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Knowledge Devotion
Prerequisite: 3 ranks in three different Knowledge skills
Benefit: Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills. Thereafter, you treat that skill as a class skill, regardless of which class you are advancing in. Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.
You then receive an insight bonus on 'weapon' attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat. The amount of the bonus depends on your Knowledge check result, as given on the following table.
Check Result/Bonus Granted
15 or below +1
16-25 +2
26-30 +3
31-35 +4
36 or higher +5
You can make only one Knowledge check per creature type per combat. If you fight creatures of multiple types during the same combat, you can make one Knowledge check per type, thereby possibly gaining different bonuses against different opponents.
This benefit is an extraordinary ability.
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This new version of this feat simply states that it only gives you benefits for WEAPON attack and damage rolls (so no using it to increase the power of spells). Again, it is a nerf, but only a small (and actually necessary) one.
Anyways, please let me know what you guys think. I'm always open to other opinions, and I'd very much like to hear what you guys have to say.
**Authors Notes: Just in case anyone was wondering, here is how the new Arcane Channeling works**
Lets say the duskblade knows Arcane Channeling (2). Thefore, in a full attack, he decides to take a swing at an opponent channeling the 'Combust' spell from 3.5. He makes the attack but misses. At this point, Combust is still 'charged' in the weapon, so when the duskblade makes his second attack, he can choose to use the 'charged' Combust spell in his weapon, OR he can choose to channel a different spell into the weapon instead (although doing so will cause the Combust spell to discharge, and therefore have no effect).
In another instance, lets say that the duskblade repeats his attacks next round and channels Combust into his weapon and lands the first hit. The Combust spell's effects are resolved after the weapon damage, and during the duskblade's second attack, he can now channel another touch spell into his weapon (other than another Combust of course).
And finally, lets say that the duskblade spends his next round swinging at his opponent with a Shocking Grasp spell. However, the duskblade ends up missing all attacks for that round. If such is the case, the Shocking Grasp spell remains charged in his weapon until the duskblade casts or channels another spell (which means it stays charged for subsequent rounds). However, once combat has ended, any spell that is still charged on the duskblade's weapon is immediately discharged.
Thus, to clarify, you CANNOT channel two spells at the same time for one attack (nor can you keep a spell 'charged' in your weapon outside of combat). Hope that clears up any confusion. :P
"." to read later... but I love Duskblade from 3.5 cannot wait to read what you have.
Please let me know what u think. I honestly am looking for good opinions, and I spent a lot of time making this class balanced and good.
Wow that's long, I'll read this later as well. But in the mean time, I must ask: what does this do that an archetype for the Magus can't?
Again, haven't read all of it so I might have missed something.
"." to read later... but I love Duskblade from 3.5 cannot wait to read what you have.Please let me know what u think. I honestly am looking for good opinions, and I spent a lot of time making this class balanced and good.
In Pathfinder, all classes but one have their hit die tied to their BAB: half BAB get d6, 3/4 BAB get d8, full BAB get d10. The barbarian is the lone exception with full BAB and d12 HD. I don't really think it would be imbalancing to give this Pathfinderized duskblade a d10 if you're going to give him full BAB.
I'm curious why you don't consider the magus to be a suitable PFRPG version of the duskblade, though.
Wow that's long, I'll read this later as well. But in the mean time, I must ask: what does this do that an archetype for the Magus can't?
Again, haven't read all of it so I might have missed something.
Spontaneous casting for one (which is something Magus archetypes can't do from what I can tell). For two, the spell list is expanded (which therefore overrides a lot of magus spells), and thus might require it's own type of class.
I'm not opposed to it being an archtype of course, but the changes are rather drastic. I can see other branches of this becoming archtypes though, which should make the class more interesting.
Basically, while I think the Magus class is interesting, I didn't enjoy casting as a wizard OR losing my full BAB. I think this class allows players to get mix sorcerer's and fighters rather than wizards and fighters (which should make for some interesting gameply). Plus, Duskblades only get a grand total of 25 different spells (and access only up to level 5 spells...which I believe helps balance it out).
"." to read later... but I love Duskblade from 3.5 cannot wait to read what you have.Please let me know what u think. I honestly am looking for good opinions, and I spent a lot of time making this class balanced and good.In Pathfinder, all classes but one have their hit die tied to their BAB: half BAB get d6, 3/4 BAB get d8, full BAB get d10. The barbarian is the lone exception with full BAB and d12 HD. I don't really think it would be imbalancing to give this Pathfinderized duskblade a d10 if you're going to give him full BAB.
I'm curious why you don't consider the magus to be a suitable PFRPG version of the duskblade, though.
I've never been a big fan of casting like a wizard (and using a spell to 'two-weapon fight' isn't really good times on an 'average' BAB). I enjoyed Duskblades because they COULD spontaneously cast and also had the benefits of a fighter.
As for the D8 HD, I mostly kept it that way for balancing issues. After all, I really opened up a lot of new spells for the duskblade, and gave him Mastery of Elements AND Mettle. I think the d8 HD is a good way to keep the power level of the class under control.
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IMHO I think you could have made a Magus Archetype called Duskblade and work it from there, so that way you can still make the changes to the already available class instead of creating a whole new attempt to replace an existing class.
Just make the spellcasting Spontaneus and balance out the abilities you area dding and at what level. Maybe even a completly different spell list or just subtitute spells for more theme-wise ones.
IMHO I think you could have made a Magus Archetype called Duskblade and work it from there, so that way you can still make the changes to the already available class instead of creating a whole new attempt to replace an existing class.
Just make the spellcasting Spontaneus and balance out the abilities you area dding and at what level. Maybe even a completly different spell list or just subtitute spells for more theme-wise ones.
My only concern about making the duskblade class an 'archtype' for the Magus was that even other archtypes from other classes normally don't apply such 'drastic changes' to their class. I do agree that this could be an archtype, but I was unsure that I could make such a claim given the changes.
Currently, after going over several opinions on my post, I have considered the idea of knocking up the HD to D10, and instead lowering the armor that a duskbblade could wear back down to medium armor, as I wasn't previously aware about the HD and BAB ratio.
Again, I appreciate all the help, and please continue to leave more comments with suggestions/advice/opinions. As I said, the point of this thread is to make a fair and compatible version of the original duskblade class for pathfinder, and all help is appreciated.
Honestly the magus and the duskblade look extremely similar to me. I think the biggest difference is the style of arcane casting: prepared vs spontaneous. The 3.5 duskblade was an Int-based spontaneous caster, and there is a sorcerer archetype in Ultimate Magic called the Sage, which is essentially an Int-based sorc. Seems to me the easiest way to go about making a PF duskblade would be to switch their casting type from prepared to spontaneous. You'd have to settle with the 3/4BAB-d8HD a magus gets, or change it to a full BAB/d10HD version, but honestly I think the most iconic ability of the duskblade (arcane channelling) is already present in the magus in the form of the ability Spellstrike.
What I can't figure out is why the duskblades were originally associated in fluff with elves, who generally look down upon spontaneous arcane casters.
Honestly the magus and the duskblade look extremely similar to me. I think the biggest difference is the style of arcane casting: prepared vs spontaneous. The 3.5 duskblade was an Int-based spontaneous caster, and there is a sorcerer archetype in Ultimate Magic called the Sage, which is essentially an Int-based sorc. Seems to me the easiest way to go about making a PF duskblade would be to switch their casting type from prepared to spontaneous. You'd have to settle with the 3/4BAB-d8HD a magus gets, or change it to a full BAB/d10HD version, but honestly I think the most iconic ability of the duskblade (arcane channelling) is already present in the magus in the form of the ability Spellstrike.
What I can't figure out is why the duskblades were originally associated in fluff with elves, who generally look down upon spontaneous arcane casters.
I will more than likely post a more refined version of the duskblade later on in this thread to represent a more definitive update. For instance, I really am leaning towards giving the duskblade d10 HD and taking away it's ability to cast with heavy armor and heavy shields (and instead just make it so a duskblade can cast up to medium armor and light shields or bucklers).
Personally, while I think the magus class is flavorful in a lot of ways, it also seems very complicated as well. As i'm sure many of us can remember, back in 3.5, there were often times when players just wanted to play something simple, and the duskblade is just a fine example of that. Also, while spellstrike is a nifty ability, it's just not the same as going to town with an arcane channeled 'two-handed' weapon.
But again, this is all just personal preference. I enjoy pathfinder a great deal, but there are just some classes (like the dervish and the duskblade) that just haven't been converted properly (at least in my eyes). Again, I do appreciate you pointing out the HD/BAB ratio. I'll be sure to make the appropriate alterations during my next revision of the class (and hopefully have a better spell list ready as well)
Well, it's obvious that you've got your own take on the Duskblade. I'm glad to see you drop the Quick Cast ability (that was way too powerful).
However, I'd make the following suggestions:
1) If you want to have them have spontaneous casting, switch the controlling ability score to Charisma (they're more Fighter/Sorcerer than Fighter/Wizard).
2) You need to decide what is more important: Their martial ability or spellcasting ability.
2a) If spellcasting is more important, they should have a 3/4 BAB progression, and you could use the Inquisitor for the Spells Known and Spells/Day.
2b) If martial ability is more important, they should have a full BAB progression, but you should use the Paladin and Ranger as your template (well, w/ a few more Spells/Day as you want them to be spontaneous casters). This would mean that they wouldn't be able to cast spells at all until 4th level (w/ CL = Class Level -3), and then they'd only get 1st-4th level spells (no cantrips, unless you wanted to include that as a special class feature).
My reasons for this are as such: With the exception of the Duskblade (and, personally, I feel Wizards rushed the PH2 instead of properly playtesting the whole book), no base class w/ a full BAB progression has more than the Paladin/Ranger spell progression. Period.
Further, while the Cleric (full caster) has a 3/4 BAB, the Sorcerer/Wizard has only a 1/2 BAB. This is because Arcane spells are better at overall damage output. Therefore, the Magus (w/ 3/4 BAB and 0-6th level spells) is at the top end of the power curve already.
Just my thoughts, so take them or leave them (as a little background, I'll let you know that I ran a 3.5 Eberron campaign from 1st to 21st level w/ a Duskblade player. He consistently showed up the Artificer AND the Wizard).
Well, it's obvious that you've got your own take on the Duskblade. I'm glad to see you drop the Quick Cast ability (that was way too powerful).
However, I'd make the following suggestions:
1) If you want to have them have spontaneous casting, switch the controlling ability score to Charisma (they're more Fighter/Sorcerer than Fighter/Wizard).
2) You need to decide what is more important: Their martial ability or spellcasting ability.
2a) If spellcasting is more important, they should have a 3/4 BAB progression, and you could use the Inquisitor for the Spells Known and Spells/Day.
2b) If martial ability is more important, they should have a full BAB progression, but you should use the Paladin and Ranger as your template (well, w/ a few more Spells/Day as you want them to be spontaneous casters). This would mean that they wouldn't be able to cast spells at all until 4th level (w/ CL = Class Level -3), and then they'd only get 1st-4th level spells (no cantrips, unless you wanted to include that as a special class feature).
My reasons for this are as such: With the exception of the Duskblade (and, personally, I feel Wizards rushed the PH2 instead of properly playtesting the whole book), no base class w/ a full BAB progression has more than the Paladin/Ranger spell progression. Period.
Further, while the Cleric (full caster) has a 3/4 BAB, the Sorcerer/Wizard has only a 1/2 BAB. This is because Arcane spells are better at overall damage output. Therefore, the Magus (w/ 3/4 BAB and 0-6th level spells) is at the top end of the power curve already.
Just my thoughts, so take them or leave them (as a little background, I'll let you know that I ran a 3.5 Eberron campaign from 1st to 21st level w/ a Duskblade player. He consistently showed up the Artificer AND the Wizard).
Currently what I'm trying to do is develop the 'duskblade spell list' based upon some previous 3.5 spells combined with the magus spell list from pathfinder (though it will be much more limited). While I understand that using the 'Charisma' score might be more appropriate, that would essentially make the class utterly worthless because of the need to have good stats in all scores (strength for damage, constitution for health, dexterity for ac/initiative, intelligence for skills, and finally charisma for spells...making the only real 'dump stat' wisdom).
It had been my intention to represent the duskblade's 'lack of power' in regards to spellcasting by limiting his spell list to only half of the schools of magic (which essentially reduces his power, especially since the duskblade can ONLY reach 5th level spells rather than 6th). From what I can tell, the standard for determining the power level of this class can really be understood by looking at the Fighter base class. My group and I crunched some numbers, and realized that a properly outfitted Fighter can do MASSIVE damage and still maintain a highly effective defense by using heavy armor and such. Upon further reflection, I realize now that my duskblade REALLY needs to have his armor proficiency reduced back down to medium (which does limit his material prowess in some respects).
Another good comparison for this class can be found with the Paladin: Paladin's get a full BAB, two good saves (plus more considering divine grace), along with the ability to cast spells (and even though he is charisma based, he doesn't have the ability to spontaneously cast). They are also proficient with all armor as well, which really does make the class very strong. In addition, while I understand that most divine spells aren't as 'offensively' strong as arcane spells, I think most can agree that 'healing' power can be just as powerful (if not more so) then offensive power.
But again, this is all just my opinion. I suppose my overall goal is to see if this class is balanced out enough to be converted into pathfinder. I mean, there are just SO many classes that I used to enjoy from 3.5 (monks, duskblades, ect) that have just becoming so much more complex in pathfinder. And again, while I do welcome most changes, there are still just a few small things lacking in certain areas.
Anywho, I'll try to have the spell list up for duskblades as soon as possible (which also brings up another good point...has anyone else noticed that a lot of arcane spells seem 'under-powered' compared to some of their 3.5 counterparts. Evocation in particular feels like it is significantly weaker as far as the damage output of some spells. I don't know, maybe it's just me.
You might want to take a look at the Vanguard from Super Genius Games ...
Ah, thanks for pointing that out for me. The class really gave me a lot of great ideas. I might try tweaking the duskblade class around that one a little bit more.
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Sure!
I just thought it was of particular relevance since one of the design goals of the Vanguard class was to create a duskblade-like class for the Pathfinder RPG.
There will even be a number of new feats for the Vanguard in one of Rite Publishing's upcoming products!
Welcome to the forums, by the way! :)
Sure!
I just thought it was of particular relevance since one of the design goals of the Vanguard class was to create a duskblade-like class for the Pathfinder RPG.
There will even be a number of new feats for the Vanguard in one of Rite Publishing's upcoming products!
Welcome to the forums, by the way! :)
I really do appreciate the help. Actually, I am now currently developing a variant for the Vanguard class (which WILL be titled Duskblade, lol) that uses Wisdom rather than Charisma for it's spell DC. I'm also planning on taking out swift cast for things like Monster Lore and 'maybe' cunning initiative so players can still take advantage of Knowledge Devotion (again, I'll have the variant posted in the forums soon enough).
Hey everyone. I finally finished my Duskblade/Vanguard variant. It's under the homebrew section of Pathfinder entitled "Vanguard Variant Class - The Duskblade (Finalized)". Please check it out and let me know what u think.