| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
re-posted from other thread:
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus....
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
So is this stealth Errata or what?
The Core Rules don`t say anything that changes the `use 2 hands = apply 1.5 STR mod unless using Light Weapon rule`.The Thrown Weapons section in Equipment says but that is just re-iterating the normal STR mod to DMG rule, and not SPECIFICALLY negating the rule for using 2 hands (in the Combat section), which says:
...NO mention of not applying to thrown weapons. If the Thrown Weapon section said `you ONLY apply STR bonus` there would be a case for excluding the 2-Handed bonus, but IT DOESN`T. There`s no reasonable case for reading the Core rules as excluding 2 Handed bonus DMG from applying to Thrown weapons.
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Incidentally, if this IS supposed to be Stealth Errata, it`s unfortunate that they still haven`t clarified the unclear language about action types for throwing, and what actual weapons that applies to.
The 2 Handed Thrower Feat says:
The Thrown Weapons section in the Core Equipment Chapter says:
In context, we can see that the specific action types to throw light/one/two-handed weapons is in the context of weapons NOT MEANT TO BE THROWN, since this info follows the shift of subject to weapons `not designed to be thrown`, and is located amidst the -4 attack penalty, and modification of Crit stats (to match Improvised Weapons, although you still do normal base damage in this case).
Weapons that ARE meant to be thrown, and thus have a listed Range stat, thus SHOULDN`T BE SUBJECT to the action limitation... I.e. a Club, which has a listed Range, can be thrown (2 Handed, with appropriate damage bonus) via Iterative Attacks (or Vital Strike`d Attack Action) and not simply as a single thrown attack as a Full-Round Action (as `Improvised Throwing Weapons` must be). You don`t need the 2-Handed Thrower Feat to do that, although you may run out of Clubs to throw unless you have Quickdraw.
But the new text in 2 Handed Thrower AGAIN makes the same error, by main-lining these action restrictions without clarifying that they only apply to `Improvised Throwing Weapons`. The Throwing Weapons section in Equipment really should be at least Errata`d to have a line-break just before the line that says , and ideally should have a TITLED SUB-SECTION that MAKES CLEAR the subject is now shifting to `Improvised Thrown Weapons`.
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Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:
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Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Strength (Str)
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You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
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Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
You say "but that is just re-iterating the normal STR mod to DMG rule, and not SPECIFICALLY negating the rule for using 2 hands (in the Combat section), which says: ¨Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands".
You barely have a valid argument about the strength bonus description, but there the 1 e 1/2 modifier to damage for 2 handed weapons is clearly labelled as an exception and is better explained in the weapon section and no argument for the weapon section.
The text in the weapon section is very clear: the 1 and 1/2 damage apply only to 2 handed melee weapon.
You are trying to make an exception into a general rule, but that is the wrong way to see it. An exception is a particular rule that apply to a particular situation, not a general rule.
Believe me, I definitely agree that the STR bonus rules should be described in ONE section only*, but the rules we have DO unfortunately describe it in an over-lapping way in 2 separate Chapters,
in a way such that logically there is no reason to restrict 2-Handed bonus from Thrown weapons.
(any more than there´s a reason to not apply the off-hand STR penalty to Off-Hand Thrown Weapons, as Grick pointed out)
Hopefully Paizo can clarify this...
AFAIK, the intent COULD well be that Thrown Weapons never benefit from 1.5 STR bonus, regarless of wielding or weapon type. OR, the Feat could be written by a free-lancer who mistakenly thought that the Core Rules had such restriction, and the wording about `Normal` functioning isn`t totally accurate...????
* since `normal STR to DMG` is already described in the general DMG section in the Combat chapter, it seems most efficient to put it all there rather than NOT mention STR to damage anywhere except in the Equipment chapter, especially given that Natural Attacks aren`t Equipment... although that is purely my OPINION :-) and either chapter would be clearer than BOTH of them.
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The combat chapter is a third location (my citation is from the characteristics effects in getting started):
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
If I look the definition of Wield, I find: "to handle or use (a weapon, tool, etc.)". I am not English native but to me it don't seem to include "to throw".
AFAIK "normal" weapons aren't throw two handed (the slingstaff is a unique exception in several ways and should get specific rules) while improvised weapons (like large rocks) or weapons not meant to be throw can be throw two handed but will not benefit from the 1 e 1/2 bonus to damage rule.
"Normalizing" all the rules in one location would be useful, but would make the rule book almost unreadable.
Comprehending rule a require to know a bit about rule B, but most of rule B is significant only after you have assimilated rule A. In whatever order you write those 2 rules you make them hard to assimilate.
I am a long time boardgamer and I can assure you that you will have problems with rulebooks both if your rules are too scattered and not properly referenced (as it sometime happen in RPG rulebooks) and if your rules are rigidly put in a specific order with all the rules about something found in only one place. The second you need to have a general grasp of one rule to comprehend another the latter system start to fall apart.
You should consider the impact of those rules on new gamers. We are old hands that already grasp the general rules, but to someone seeing them for the first time finding a full page that describe what strength do with complex references to things (AC, weapon damage, ecc.) that will be explained later will be daunting.
If perchance you have played the Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader series of boardgames, they are a perfect example of what I am saying.
Squad Leader and expansion was a very complex game, but you learned it a few rules at a time and had the time to grasp and test them before getting to use the next set of rules. It was very easy to learn.
Advanced Squad Leader was the same game with the rules reorganized and updated. You had to read and grasp several heavy chapters to be capable to start your first game. It is extremely hard to learn even if the rules are much more clear and concise.