The Subject is permanently shrouded in a field of Antimagic, either from a Location (Like a Dead Magic demiplane) or through the use of an Artifact or other device.
Who wins?
The Subject is permanently shrouded in a field of Antimagic, either from a Location (Like a Dead Magic demiplane) or through the use of an Artifact or other device.
Who wins?
Generally speaking, divinations can be blocked by a sheet of lead or a thick amount of stone, but Discern location is a different beast.
A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.
The spell calls out specifically what can stop it. Antimagic is not on the list.
** spoiler omitted **
The spell calls out specifically what can stop it. Antimagic is not on the list.
I Hear ya. And then there's "Dead Magic" planar trait, for your local Demiplane:
Dead Magic
These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
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Maybe you'd be able to discern the Portal... but I'm not sure about anyone Within the plane itself.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have Contradiction: A spell that explicitly can see through Anything short of Mindblank and Divine Intervention...
and a Plane of Existence that cannot support a Divination spell at all.
** spoiler omitted **
The spell calls out specifically what can stop it. Antimagic is not on the list.I Hear ya. And then there's "Dead Magic" planar trait, for your local Demiplane:
Dead Magic
These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
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Maybe you'd be able to discern the Portal... but I'm not sure about anyone Within the plane itself.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have Contradiction: A spell that explicitly can see through Anything short of Mindblank and Divine Intervention...
and a Plane of Existence that cannot support a Divination spell at all.
Anti-magic field does not stop all forms of detection.
For example. I am in a 10 foot by 10 foot antimagic field. I can still be scried upon. The scrying censor has a 30 foot field of vision, so it can be outside the anti-magic field and still see me.
Discern Location is a very powerful spell. It most likely relies on direct and indirect divinations.
-Does any diety know that the person is on that plane? Then Discern Location could be asking them to give that information.
-Did the person leave any kind of trail when they traveled to that plane? Discern Location could pick that up.
So, the person took the portal to the anti-magic plane, they would have left a trail on the astral or ethereal planes while getting there. They also may have attracted the attention of any dieties or other powerful beings that watch over the portal.
In short, there is some, non-zero amount of information about this person's current location out there, and Discern Location will retrieve as much of it as possible. Discern Location would give you that they entered Anti-magic Place X via Portal Y. From there, you could use more mundane methods to track them.
Anti-magic field does not stop all forms of detection.
For example. I am in a 10 foot by 10 foot antimagic field. I can still be scried upon. The scrying censor has a 30 foot field of vision, so it can be outside the anti-magic field and still see me.
Discern Location is a very powerful spell. It most likely relies on direct and indirect divinations.
-Does any diety know that the person is on that plane? Then Discern Location could be asking them to give that information.
-Did the person leave any kind of trail when they traveled to that plane? Discern Location could pick that up.So, the person took the portal to the anti-magic plane, they would have left a trail on the astral or ethereal planes while getting there. They also may have attracted the attention of any dieties or other powerful beings that watch over the portal.
In short, there is some, non-zero amount of information about this person's current location out there, and Discern Location will retrieve as much of it as possible. Discern Location would give you that they entered...
I'd advise not to rely on Deities at all, here, since the spell can be used by Arcane means... but, really, can't be helped in this case. XD
While in a Dead Magic plane, I argue that Nothing of the target's current condition, is known to a Discerning spell. I can't argue against your statement that a scrying sensor can still see into the antimagic field normally, but any/all properties beyond mundane vision is probably blocked. (Of course, a scrying sensor can't exist on that Plane, but anyways...)
Thing is, I don't quite know if Discern Location can judge where a character is based on where it Was in the Past. That's the big question.
The creature stepped into the plane. Then.... Nothing.
Does a Discern Location spell tell you of where a creature Was?
Edit: That question is based on the assumption that the Discern Location spell Cannot function within the Dead Magic plane, And does not Detect the creatures within, as per the Dead Magic planar trait description... which, of course, is up for arguement if anyone has further insight. XD
Anti-magic field does not stop all forms of detection.
For example. I am in a 10 foot by 10 foot antimagic field. I can still be scried upon. The scrying censor has a 30 foot field of vision, so it can be outside the anti-magic field and still see me.
Discern Location is a very powerful spell. It most likely relies on direct and indirect divinations.
-Does any diety know that the person is on that plane? Then Discern Location could be asking them to give that information.
-Did the person leave any kind of trail when they traveled to that plane? Discern Location could pick that up.So, the person took the portal to the anti-magic plane, they would have left a trail on the astral or ethereal planes while getting there. They also may have attracted the attention of any dieties or other powerful beings that watch over the portal.
In short, there is some, non-zero amount of information about this person's current location out there, and Discern Location will retrieve as much of it as possible. Discern Location would give you that they entered...
I'd advise not to rely on Deities at all, here, since the spell can be used by Arcane means... but, really, can't be helped in this case. XD
Substitute any sufficiently powerful being willing to give up the information for diety. Arcane casters deal with powerful extraplanar beings all the time.
While in a Dead Magic plane, I argue that Nothing of the target's current condition, is known to a Discerning spell. I can't argue against your statement that a scrying sensor can still see into the antimagic field normally, but any/all properties beyond mundane vision is probably blocked. (Of course, a scrying sensor can't exist on that Plane, but anyways...)Thing is, I don't quite know if Discern Location can judge where a character is based on where it Was in the Past. That's the big question.
The creature stepped into the plane. Then.... Nothing.
Does a Discern Location spell tell you of where a creature Was?
Edit: That question is based on the assumption that the Discern Location spell Cannot function within the Dead Magic plane, And does not Detect the creatures within, as per the Dead Magic planar trait description... which, of course, is up for arguement if anyone has further insight. XD
It is not telling you where they were so much as it tells you, to the best of its knowledge, they are there right now. Because of the anti-magic field, the divination cannot know where they went after that, so as far as the spell knows, that is their current location.
It is not telling you where they were so much as it tells you, to the best of its knowledge, they are there right now. Because of the anti-magic field, the divination cannot know where they went after that, so as far as the spell knows, that is their current location.
Then would you agree to the following situation:
-Target enters a Dead Magic demiplane.
-Target Uses an item for continuous Mind Blank effect (Naturally suppressed by antimagic)
-Target Leaves the Dead Magic plane, item first. (item no longer suppressed)
-Target flees for a distant location, invisible.
-Discern Location is cast to reveal the whereabouts of Target.
-Discern Location reveals that the Most Likely place the Target resides is the Dead Magic demiplane.
Reasons:
-The target was last seen entering there.
-The target was never seen Leaving, since it was Officially lost to Discern Magic the instant they left, and fled
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If what I interpret correctly what you've told me... Then the above situation should be True. Correct?
I wouldn't do it that way at all. Suddenly we've got divination magic that originally told you about something at an instant in time that's now been retconned to be able to scrabble back in time and somehow identify the last known location of something.
I'd keep it simple. Dead magic plane equals undetectable. And if someone asked me why, I'd say that it takes magic of divine power to create a plane, and this one's a dead magic plane, ergo no detection allowed.
Antimagic is a much weaker thing than dead magic. For example, magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic.
As for created demiplanes, the spell specifically states that no divination works, and discern location is divination. Secondly, the create demiplane spells were created after discern location, so we have to assume the existence of discern location was known to the writers.
Antimagic is a much weaker thing than dead magic. For example, magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic.
...Love the rest of your answer ^_^
But... Rewind here. X_X
"magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic."
May I ask where you read or saw this?
So far, I'm just reading the SRD under the "Dead Magic" planar trait.... I'm Not quite seeing That.
Would that be GM ruled? It makes logical sense, to me... but then again, wearing sunglasses to see during the day with Ebon Eyes, does too... X_X
Antimagic is a much weaker thing than dead magic. For example, magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic.
...Love the rest of your answer ^_^
But... Rewind here. X_X
"magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic."
May I ask where you read or saw this?
So far, I'm just reading the SRD under the "Dead Magic" planar trait.... I'm Not quite seeing That.
Would that be GM ruled? It makes logical sense, to me... but then again, wearing sunglasses to see during the day with Ebon Eyes, does too... X_X
A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.
Dead Magic: These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
So, dead magic is a planar antimagic field, and antimagic field doesn't kill constructs or golems. Though it would stop an animate objects spell or render an intelligent magic item inert.
I wouldn't do it that way at all. Suddenly we've got divination magic that originally told you about something at an instant in time that's now been retconned to be able to scrabble back in time and somehow identify the last known location of something.
I'd keep it simple. Dead magic plane equals undetectable. And if someone asked me why, I'd say that it takes magic of divine power to create a plane, and this one's a dead magic plane, ergo no detection allowed.
Antimagic is a much weaker thing than dead magic. For example, magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic.
As for created demiplanes, the spell specifically states that no divination works, and discern location is divination. Secondly, the create demiplane spells were created after discern location, so we have to assume the existence of discern location was known to the writers.
Actually, I see it more as a giant google search on their location. The spell searches for all information on the target's current location, and then filters that information down to a single answer that has the highest probability of being true.
In the case of a creature that enters a dead magic plane, there is no information on their location after they enter the dead magic plane. So all of the information that comes up in the search would relate to their location just prior to that.
Of course, that is just one way the spell could work.
Actually, I see it more as a giant google search on their location. The spell searches for all information on the target's current location, and then filters that information down to a single answer that has the highest probability of being true.In the case of a creature that enters a dead magic plane, there is no information on their location after they enter the dead magic plane. So all of the information that comes up in the search would relate to their location just prior to that.
Of course, that is just one way the spell could work.
Ah, but you've yet to directly answer the proposed situation above; a utilization of Dead Magic, and Mindblank, to create the ultimate deception... ^_^ I still believe that according to Your rules, the situation proposed would result in that Discern Location spell --- And all future others --- to point towards That dead magic demiplane.
...Which would ironically suit my every need.
Your interpretation may also backfire a certain other way; Say that, in the above situation ( Again, always post #7 ), I decided not to Bother with an Invisibility spell, and a whole crowd witnessed my presence. Would you "giant google search" manage to spot me, then, Despite the spell stating that a Mind Blank spell can trump Discern Location?
...I have to go with gbonehead, on this one. And RAW seems to back it up.
Also, @gbonehead
My mistake. I interpreted what you said in the exact Opposite way:
Antimagic is a much weaker thing than dead magic. For example, magical beings such as constructs don't stop working in antimagic.
I understood that the above implied that Dead Magic Did indeed suppress magical beings such as constructs. Which would have surprised me, and I would have loved to know more.