So, I've been retooling the Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, and Ranger cavalry archetypes for a firearms campaign, and up comes the thought of how cool a Rogue on horseback would be.
Well, after some thought, I decreed that a Rogue should be able to sneak attack from horseback provided all the normal conditions of a sneak attack apply, which is no easy task considering a horse's lack of the Stealth skill. I also decreed that the same should apply to use of the Ride-By Attack feat (a ride-by sneak attack would be so cool). So I came up with a Rogue archetype that fixes the stealth on horseback issue. Take a look:
Rogue Rider
Skills - A rogue rider gains ride and handle animal as class skills and loses knowledge (dungeoneering) as a class skill.
Shadow Steed
At 1st level any land based mount with an intelligence score of 1 or 2, such as a horse, pony, or riding dog, that a Rogue Rider owns is treated as having stealth as a class skill with a number of ranks equal to the ranks the rogue rider possesses in the stealth skill. The animal can be ordered to use this skill by the Rogue Rider without needing to know a trick, but nobody else except a character with the Improved Shadow Steed ability can order the horse to use this ability. They lack the necessary training. A 1st level rogue rider automatically begins play owning a horse, pony, or riding dog of the standard Bestiary stats (aside from the Stealth ranks) at no cost to the player. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Silent Hooves
At 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level a Rogue Rider's mount (any mount effected by Shadow Steed) gains a +1 competence bonus on all Stealth checks. This ability replaces Trap Sense.
Improved Shadow Steed
At 4th level the Shadow Steed ability applies to any land based mount with an intelligence score of 1 or 2 that the Rogue Rider is riding, not just mounts the Rogue Rider owns. This ability replaces Uncanny Dodge.
Improved Silent Hooves
At level a Rogue Rider's mount may use Stealth while running or charging at a -10 penalty. The Rogue Rider may sneak attack at the end of a charge by his or her mount if the Stealth check is successful, and gains all the normal benefits of a charge as well as those of a sneak attack. This ability replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge.
I personally think it would make an awesome cavalry scout for both a firearms campaign and a normal medieval campaign. Thoughts?
It's too clunky. Unless it's a bonded animal, the bonuses should apply to everything they ride. Weapon Training doesn't apply to just weapons they own!
I think they should get an animal companion. Any character that needs a mount should get an animal companion. This also solves the stealth as a class skill problem. Just copy the cavalier's mount.
Secondary consideration: make this a cavalier archetype! Light armor only, no challenge or banner, sneak attack at half progression, proficiency with firearms, etc.
It's too clunky. Unless it's a bonded animal, the bonuses should apply to everything they ride. Weapon Training doesn't apply to just weapons they own!
I think they should get an animal companion. Any character that needs a mount should get an animal companion. This also solves the stealth as a class skill problem. Just copy the cavalier's mount.
Secondary consideration: make this a cavalier archetype! Light armor only, no challenge or banner, sneak attack at half progression, proficiency with firearms, etc.
Cavalier wouldn't work, as it's banned in this particular campaign (Explanation in post 35).
Would taking away Trapfinding, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion be enough to pay for a bonded mount with full ranks in Stealth and the eventual ability to use Stealth while running or charging (at a -10 penalty), or is it too much/too little to sacrifice?
The rogue is an extremely weak class. Their main redeeming feature is the ability to do high amounts of damage in circumstantial cases, which generally needs a second player to help out (requiring other players to work together so only you can get a great bonus is generally a bad thing). Honestly, just giving up trapfinding and replacing it with a mount (aka: horse or doggie, not a lion.) would go a long way to making it comparable to other classes.
You seem to be going for a mounted skirmisher, correct? Turns out my thesis was on cavalry in the 1800s and the effects firearms had on them, and how this turned them into mounted skirmishers. It's rare I get to use that thing, so I'll be making use of it here!
The fundamental problem with a ranged rogue is how hard it is to get sneak attack at range. Stealth is only a bandaid, since it can't be used reliably in combat.
I do urge you to rethink the banning of the cavalier class. Just because the base class is a knight in shining armor, doesn't mean the archetype has to be.
Presumably, you want someone who is highly mobile, perceptive, can ambush, and can do reliable damage. So here's my take, not fully flushed out, but detailed enough that you know where to look.
Mounted Infantry:
Base class: Cavalier
Battered Gun: as a gunslinger's gunsmith ability. Must choose musket. This ability replaces the cavalier's order and all associated abilities.
Far Challenge: as a luring cavalier. Replaces normal challenge. Does +50% damage against flat-footed foes, or foes who are denied their dex bonus to AC.
Silent Cooperation: At 3rd level, you and your bonded mount gain Skill Focus (Stealth).
Advantageous Terrain from the Battle Scout. Gains this around 7th or 10th level. At the start of his day, he may spend 10 minutes in quiet contemplation. At the end of this time, he chooses one terrain to act as his favored terrain for the purposes of this ability only. This ability replaces Cavalier's Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge.
This could use a replacement for Banner / Greater Banner abilities. I recommend the Snap Shot rogue talent and the Stealthy Sniper advanced rogue talent.
It also needs a replacement for the capstone ability. Or not, since people rarely play level 20 characters.
See, barely a cavalier :) They provide a nice skeleton for mounted classes, that's why I recommend it. Far Challenge is a nice ability, and provides consistent damage that doesn't require others to help (like a rogue's SA does).
Also, they should probably get some of the Musket Master archetype's abilities.
I never really had issues with the Rogue.
Why tear up the Cavalier so heavily when a Ranger or Rogue archetype could do the job while remaining closer to the original class?
Perhaps a Rough Rider type theme could work for keeping the Cavalier in play. It'd lose the order and charge abilities, but get some ranged combat and inspiration abilities. It'd be like that awesome glory hound Teddy Roosevelt and his troops ^_^.
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As he pointed out, the rogue is very weak to begin with, its only redeeming factor being sneak attack; and trying to ranged sneak attack is pathetic. Basically you try to stealth mount near them, you get to shoot once, and then you sit around not doing anything useful until the end of combat.
If you could sneak attack flanked opponents without having to be one of the flankers, that would go a little ways in helping, but then youre still firing into melee, so you need the feats for it or youre taking a -4.