Right, so this fellow Estovian has been operating the lodge for some time. The lodge is essentially a bastion of civilization in the middle of the woods.
Here is my question: what explanation would Estovian give as to why the lodge has not been attacked and everyone inside slaughtered?
I will have him point out the walls, the guards, Delgros' skill, and the fact that there are many people here in one place so werewolves would not risk it. However, I know my PCs aren't going to believe that. I will either have to come up with a better explanation or risk down-selling the menace of the werewolves. Why should they fear them if a bunch of NPC guards can keep them in check? I suspect that to be their line of thinking in that case.
I'm sure one of my PCs will try to counter that by stating that if the lodge has been here that long that -eventually- the werebeasts would get bold and make a focused attempt to remove this insult/threat inside their territory.
Estovian has been doing this for a long time, enough to think of plenty of ways to answer what is a very obvious question for guests to ask. Now we know the reason why the lodge isn't attacked but the module even says that if it were not for the vilkacis the tribes would line up to tear him apart. I can't just have him say that. Any thoughts or ideas as to how he would reassure the PCs?
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The werewolves are "reclusive and rare and are spoken of as legends and ghost stories" instead of a "real, actual group of people that live in the forest and you can find them right over there".
The people who live in the woods claim they saw one once, or they tell rumors over dinner, or they have superstitious folk wards against lycanthropy like Duristan's scar ward. Have any of them ever met one? No.
The werewolves, in the Lodge's population's mind, either don't exist or it is questionable if they exist at all. In reality, they're not killing everyone there because of Estovion.
Basically, don't come out and say "Oh, all of the werewolf tribes are real and they have pie on Sunday at Perkins and sign autographs." Are they real? Who are they? Raise the question of why they haven't attacked the lodge yet-- well, why haven't they? Are they even real enough to attack the lodge? Are werewolves, if they are real, even in the woods around here at all?
Werewolves are wild, not stupid.
Is this human lodge doing anything? Usually no. Well, recently there's a self-styled werewolf hunter but recently is a whole adventure-worth's stack of issues.
Would the werewolves (on a standard day) likely put aside all their differences and take up arms in an epic battle against the human invaders to drive out one little werewolf hunter? No, they're not lawful.
Are they more likely to set a trap for the idiot human then torture him before finally either eating him alive or biting him repeatedly until he succumbs to a long, slow, terrible transformation while they laugh their furry little butts off? That sounds about right. Does this endanger the human lodge? No. Could Estovian explain this away as "oh, he checked out early"? Or course. He's a smart man. These are dangerous woods and there are many more dangers than just werewolves.
Do the guests know there are werewolves? Most likely they think there's a few. It's hard to mistake that sound. Do they know there's a vast society of multiple packs that negotiate with the human owner of the lodge? Heck no, why would they even suspect? There's no evidence.
To Ice Titan: Yeah, I get what you're saying but that is quickly going to be made invalid by the fact that they meet werewolves near the lodge right off the bat with Event 3: The Moon Hunt.
Also on page 27 it says this: "Huntsmaster Delgros Kroitzcer knows nothing of the Whispering Way, but he can elaborate on the pack and tribal structure of the wood’s werewolves (see Werewolves of the Shudderwood on page 35). He can also confirm that the werewolves seem to be more aggressive than usual, although to his knowledge they have never attacked the lodge." So yes, according to the module they do have pie at Perkins and the lodge knows about it.
It is well known to the lodge staff that there are werewolves about. It gives all of this information about the werewolf tribes and pretty much makes Delgros the mouthpiece of the DM for relaying this info. I cannot pretend that there are no werewolves when people supposedly come to this lodge with the very purpose to hunt them. The moment this happens (and it will) they will ask why they have never attacked the lodge. That it hasn't been attacked, not a single attempt even now they are 'more aggressive', will raise questions. I'm surprised that Delgros hasn't asked why.
To ANebulousMistress: They may not be stupid but they are supposed to be strong and played up as something to be feared in this module. Yes, this human lodge is doing something: it is giving people who are hunting them a staging ground. Duristan not only is hunting them but he has successfully killed at least one (see Part C of the intro), the man there was a werewolf. This is not just a recent development as page 21 of Rule of Fear says the following of Rogeif Yharloc: "The people’s hero, Yharloc reigns as the most famous hunter of lycanthropes in Lozeri." It also says that: "He much prefers to spend his time stalking the Shudderwood for sentient prey. Yharloc frequently visits the Ascanor Lodge..." Werewolf hunting from Ascanor is far from 'recent'. None of this inspires retribution?
Nor am I saying that every tribe would put aside their differences. Given the lodge's obvious defenses, it would only take one. Climbing the walls one night, breaking in a window, and ripping everyone inside apart would be far from an 'epic battle'.
Yes, they know that werewolves are out there. Delgros tells them this during the few times he comes to the lodge. Frankly it is one of the things that draw nobles out there. They want to say they killed a werewolf. They are there to hunt big game, werewolf-grade game.
Honestly I don't care what everyone else in the lodge thinks. I care what Estovian may have to say when presented with this because we all know that the PCs aren't going to buy 'oh there are no werewolves out there'. Not when they stare them in the face.
I was hoping to get some ideas for plausible deniability for Estovian. All of this is stepping around the issue and is not going to stop the PCs from asking this obvious question. The problem here is that the PCs (either through Delgros or with own eyes) are going to know the following: werewolves are real and out there, they are angry and numerous (the numerous howling cries of the Vollensag in Event 3) and that, for some reason, they haven't attacked.
Look, I appreciate the efforts, I do. I wouldn't be responding as such if I didn't respect you but we can't pretend that the lodge believes werewolves aren't out there, not when so many sources tell the PCs otherwise. Likewise we cannot believe that they wouldn't attack when the module clearly says on page 12 the following of Estovian: "If he were ever to lose this ability, the werewolf packs would line up to feast upon his flesh."
One way or another Estovian is going to be questioned about this and I'd just rather be able to give them something other than: "Yes, erm- well... ahem... I guess we're just lucky? *nervous laugh*". Not when he's been around that long to think of answers to that, a luxury I don't have.
I was thinking something like the lodge being heavily blessed by Pharasmin holy men? The lodge's reputation of having many skilled werewolf hunters? A lot of silvered bear-traps? Maybe I'm wrong and the PCs will believe that a handful of guards and a wooden wall keeps werewolves out, these beastly slayers of men with equally horrible reputations. I doubt it though. What about Hitchcock, who authored this module? I'm curious as to what he has to say. I absolutely love this module but this is the only real possible hang-up I can find.
EDIT: Wowee, that was quite a post, huh? I guess I like to be thorough but the TD;DR version is that while you guys bring up a lot of good chaff I can use to throw them off, none of that answers the question. What would Estovian say when they push past all of that (which will be rather quickly considering the events)?
Maybe the lodge is backed by the Pathfinders(or another powerful organization), and taking such a strong action against it might bring unwanted attention(potentially violent action) to the werewolves.
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So yes, according to the module they do have pie at Perkins and the lodge knows about it.
Ah, yes. Now I remember why I thought this was a strange question. I edited the entire Shudderwood section of the book to remove the attitude towards werewolves like they are rowdy neighbors and to re-introduce paranoia and fear. EDIT: Check out my campaign log to see how I edited around the sequence of events, but, to be fair as well, it doesn't contain the attitude I had a lot of NPCs take on-- that Duristan is an idiot who was killing people who may or may not have even been werewolves, though the evidence leans heavily towards "werewolf" in many circumstances.
Honestly, take a set of shears and a pen to the module and just change it until it makes sense to you. Maybe the werewolves are evil and such but aren't organized enough to put together a large-scale attack? Maybe only the smaller packs like the Vollensag-- er, the really big Kellid ones-- want to attack, while the others think it'll just draw attention? Maybe the pack that wants to kill them need the approval of all of the packs to do so, and the Prince's Wolves aren't voting yes? Maybe the werewolves know that making their presence known would attract more annoying hunters like Duristan? A lot of Paizo modules come with this problem-- the "PC" problem, where a PC tips the glass one way instead of the way the module expects him to and there's... nothing in the module to let you know what might happen.
What Estovion's answer will be: "If there are werewolves, obviously they're not so stupid as to attack a well-defended fortress such as the lodge."
Then the PCs say "But your lodge is babies. I jump wall with roll of a 2 on my twenty-dice. Why they not try? They have good chance to roll of a 2 on twenty-dice."
Then he says "Are you joking? We have twenty-foot wooden pallisades and around the clock protection from some of Lepidstadt's finest career soldiers. You'd have to be an idiot to see a hot coal and touch it even though you know you'll get burned. They haven't tried because they know they'll die."
Which on another level is entirely true.
Werewolf-- CR 2.
Guards? Probably... CR 2. Warrior 3, maybe Warrior 2. They probably have silver crossbow bolts, just in case the legends are true.
If the werewolves attacked, they'd likely just run around and then die to a hail of crossbow bolts. On the other hand? The real powerful packs like the Vollensag, the Demon Wolves or the Prince's Wolves or Mathus Mordrinacht's elite guard could attack and wipe them out. But really though, the average werewolf would be repelled by the defenses the Lodge has, and it's metagaming to assume that because you're level 5 that the werewolves will have class levels to be CR 4-6 to fight you.
I will probably play up the defenses up the lodge to make it a little more fortress like.
Why would they attack? What would they gain from it? the ire of some noble houses...maybe there is a high level Wizard staying there for jollies...what incentive has a pack got in fighting a battle which isn't necessary and could weaken them to the point when another pack might think to themselves that they are now easy meat....
To Ice Titan: The more we talk about this the more I do want to do just that, redesign that part.
I think a lot of my problems will be lessened if I just make Delgros a little less knowledgeable and have all that info come from another source. In this case I can more successfully pass this off with an iron-curtain of ignorance/arrogance. I've been keeping up with your campaign log and I've found it invaluable for ideas but I haven't read the last entry or two. I should fix that.
We still have the issue that the PCs will learn that there has never been a single -attempt- on the lodge in one form or another. If the werewolves are so smart, then why not sneak in during a different phase of the moon as a guard/retainer/hired help of a noble? Duristan has six hirelings without names (as written). How thoroughly do you think he checks them, considering the fool he is (as written)?
To Spacelard: I love how everyone keeps thinking that an attack on the lodge equals a big, fair fight on open ground. Part of the horror of werewolves comes from the fact that they could be hiding as anyone, anywhere. The second part of the lodge sequence is all about that: a possible werewolf attack from within. If they were as smart as people keep saying they were then there would not even be a fight. There would be a massacre.
Bear in mind that I'm not trying to definitively say how things would go, just how my PCs (and players) would logically see this playing out with the info they are given and how I will have to react. This brings me right back to players almost immediately going to Estovian and Estovian having nothing to say as written.
To wraithstrike: I find the idea that (if the lodge knew about the werewolves) making it known to them that they have protection of a more powerful organization interesting. Though that is basically telling the werewolves "Don't interfere with us killing you or we will kill you." which is the worst kind of ultimatum. I can only wonder how long the proud and vindictive (as written) werewolves of the Shudderwood would take that laying down. Nothing unites people like an outside threat and that threat would have had to exist long before the tribal fracture of the module. Still, this adds a new dimension to things that I will consider, thank you.
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Thank you for the replies so far, you've given me other angles to consider. This is a delicate section of roleplay that will require such forethought and that is appreciated. With a re-write of Delgros I think I've gotten enough for Estovian to have a decent smokescreen to protect his hide for the first part.
The problem is either I use mundane defenses against supernatural forces as his explanation and make the werewolves look like ignorant chumps in my PCs' eyes -or- Estovian has nothing to say in defense which, to my PCs, is as bad as if I had tattooed "SECRET VILLAIN" on his forehead. Metagamey? Probably, but recognizing it won't stop it and considering what they've been through, the PCs have a legitimate argument for being paranoid. I would rather create a third option than trying to support one of two weak ones.
One idea I've been tossing around was that the werewolves purposefully keep the lodge around for sport and entertainment, the exact reason the hunters are there. The werewolves hunt the werewolf hunters. Obviously I can't have Estovian say this but I could have Delgros voice his suspicion of it because he too has wondered. In that case Estovian would look less like someone who is hiding something and more like someone who is in denial at best, removing a lot of suspicion from him (at first). This way the PCs get a more believable reason as to why the lodge is still around and the werewolves still get to look menacing, even more so with the idea that the lodge exists only at their whim. That should make the PCs nervous with the idea that nowhere is truly safe. Thoughts?
Edit: I know I'm long winded. This is the downside of writing so many essays. They say recognizing the problem is the first step to recovery. :P
TL;DR: All of these make for good ideas or food for thought. However, Estovian still needs a good alibi but I think I can make it from here. Thanks everyone!
Edit, part the second: Ice Titan, I like the idea of Duristan's indiscrimination towards killing everyone who might be a werewolf. Two of my PCs were part of a prologue type game I had before in which it was left unclear if a man on trial for being a werewolf was actually guilty and deserved the death he got. I'll be sure to capitalize on what is essentially a follow up on that same feeling of uncertainty, especially with one PC who I've been foreshadowing uncertainty as being his downfall.
The point I was trying to make is what would they get for attacking the lodge? From what I can see nothing other than 1. Annoying a lot of wealthy people 2. Potentially weakening their own clan leaving it ripe for take over...
The point I was trying to make is what would they get for attacking the lodge? From what I can see nothing other than 1. Annoying a lot of wealthy people 2. Potentially weakening their own clan leaving it ripe for take over...
The first thought that entered my head is for the dead nobles. I'm sure plenty of Ustalavs would like to see certain nobility dead... and those Ustalavs aren't even werewolves. :P
I wrote up more of a response telling what I think they have to gain, even quoted Rule of Fear, but decided not to post it for brevity. Again, I'm not interested in talking feasibility of an attack in the first place. Honestly, whether we agree or not on the risk/reward here is irrelevant. It all comes down to what the PCs will do/say/think.
This is not the way my PCs will approach the matter, they'll invent plenty of reasons for a lodge attack one way or another. My problem here (the one I first said) is I need to have Estovian be able to give some half-decent counter to these concerns. Simply asking what the wolves have to gain isn't going to fly with the PCs. They'll give him reasons, ones he'd be hard pressed to repel without giving away the fact that he has intimate knowledge of the packs (more than he should).
Discussing feasibility/logistics is attacking the symptom and not the cause because, while that might work with reasonable individuals... PCs tend to be anything but, especially when scared and trapped in a lodge surrounded by werewolves.
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Honestly the threat of the Prince or the local Lord sending in troops to raze the wood is a good enough reason not to tear apart the mostly wealthy nobility that stays at the Lodge. Only a few of them have the audacity to hunt werewolves. Mostly its bored rich fops drinking wine and taking afternoon constitutionals. Not really a super threat just being there. Slaughter the whole lot of them and you have reprisal trouble. Werewolves know that it's probably more trouble than its worth.
I mean if powers like Adivion Adrissant or the Order of the Palatine Eye are members (and can vouch for visitors) then the lodge has some pretty powerful patrons over and above the nobility.
--Vrocktober
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Well, it seems to me Estovion has the support of the powerful tribes (hence being able to setup the meeting with Vrood and the werewolf lord). The order of the woods may be "Don't mess with the humans over here, else your pack is open season." Also, a good way to keep opposing packs and tribes low in population without overtly acting would be to keep the place under protection. The Dire Werewolfs and Demon Tribe get killed from time to time (with hints of good hunting grounds dropped the Lodge's way), while the Prince's Wolves and the powerful tribes all benefit from less competition for local resources.
I mean, the werewolves are a CE lot. Sending your own kind to the slaughter house to increase your lot in life is pretty standard fare.
Oh, I just am having the lodge's wood work trimmed nicely with old well tarnished silver. It would be black against the dark wood and would hardly be visible to visitors, but to those pesky wolfmen out there...well a sure sign saying: go away.
I totally agree with Vrock's comment above. The Werewolves leave the Lodge alone because they know if they attack it will bring a whole lot of pain down on them, a lot of highly paid werewolf hunters that will destroy the lives the werewolves have built in the forest. Although some individual werewolves are tempted, the pack leader has prohibited such an attack. For the same reason, the werewolves don't focus on attacking well to do travelers clearly on the way to the Lodge.
I don't think it is credible to play it as if it is unclear whether the werewolves really exist. There is just too much history and too many werewolves. Heck, this is Ustalav. Everyone knows the monsters are real. And, after what the party saw in Trial of the Beast, a bunch of werewolves are the height of monster normality.
I'm not concerned about the module as written on this issue. I'll would just have Estovion say something like, "The werewolves know this Lodge has existed in the Shudderwood as long as they have. There is an unspoken detente -- they leave the Lodge and its guests alone, and the Lords of Ustalav don't fill the Wood with werewolf hunters packing silver."
The occasional independent werewolf hunter is something the Lodge can't really prevent, and something the werewolves need to tolerate as part of the unspoken deal. Frankly, I think the only reason the werewolves will tear Estovion apart without the protection of the Vilkacis is because he had the audacity to mess with something so sacred to the werewolves. Otherwise, they would respect the detente that has served them well so long. That is, ironically, it is Estovion's machinations that have, in fact, brought the survival of the Lodge into serious question for the first time.
I also decided that werewolf country was southeast across the river from the Lodge. They stayed on there side and werewolf hunters weren't invited to the woods. In fact, the lodge employees actively downplay the werewolf presence in the woods as part of the deal.