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While I share a fear of class bloat, my fear generally comes more from making old classes obsolete or redundant rather than from actually having new classes.
So I wanted to post a thread for new class "concepts" where people could post ideas and discuss if there is a place in the game for them.
I'll start with a few.
1. Spontaneous Druid: The Oracle fills the spontaneous cleric niche, but there is surely room for a wild child of nature who gains spells through their natural connection to nature.
2. Arcane Ranger: This could almost be an archetype, but in addition to spell list may making it to onerous a task to just put in an archtype, it really isn't a "ranger". Basically a 4 level casting full bab class, removing all of the favored enemy/hunters bond/etc and replacing them with more magic focused abilities (or even magical defenses)
3. Shapeshifter: As in that is the basic ability of the class. No other spells, just the ability to change form and shape depending on need at the time. Could start with one form and expand from there with forms growing in ability. Add in some ability bonuses to forms known along the way.
Let's stay out of Psionics for now, I said my piece on that elsewhere.
Arcane Tank: A class that uses magic (not necessarily spells, but not necessarily not spells either) to fill the role of the tank. Possibly with magical auras or tricks to accomplish that role. I like the idea of swift action or immediate action activation, 1 round duration buffs.
Non-magical de-buffer.
Non-magical battlefield controller.
Mobility-based combatant: They only get 1 attack per round, but it causes extra damage depending on movement, etc. Kind of like a Full BAB 3.5 scout.
Skill-based healer and inventor.
Magic-based skill monkey. A character that uses magic to accomplish all the things a rogue does.
One of the Kobold Quarterly issues has an arcane ranger, I think.
SmiloDan: Rite Publishing will have a product that does the arcane tank fairly well soon.
Cad fighter does non-magical debuffer decently, with their focus on Dirty Trick.
Flowing Monk makes for a good battlefield controller, as does anyone with a guisarme.
The Archaeologist bard archetype works really well for a magic-based skill monkey.
The wizard does really well with using magic to do all the things rogues do too :)
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One of the Kobold Quarterly issues has an arcane ranger, I think.
SmiloDan: Rite Publishing will have a product that does the arcane tank fairly well soon.
Cad fighter does non-magical debuffer decently, with their focus on Dirty Trick.
Flowing Monk makes for a good battlefield controller, as does anyone with a guisarme.
The Archaeologist bard archetype works really well for a magic-based skill monkey.
The wizard does really well with using magic to do all the things rogues do too :)
I really like the archaeologist bard. The only complaint I have with it is the bard spell list is less than ideal for the concept, but the alternative of an entire separate spell list is a bit extreme.
This has always been my issue with the bard. I like the concept of a 6 level skill monkey caster know it all, but I don't want any of that weird perform stuff.
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My list would be Spontaneous Druid, Spontaneous Magus (or something that is to a hypothetical bloodline neutral version of dragon disciple as the magus is to the eldritch knight), Prepared Bard, Spontaneous Witch, 1/2 BAB full divine caster.
There are some PrCs I'd like to see as well: dragon disciple-like PrCs for some of the other bloodlines, something like mystic theurge for combining wizard with sorceror, a divine version of arcane trickster, and something eldritich knight-like to combine monk with a spellcaster. Mostly basic multiclassing glue apart from the DD variants, though those might call for archetyping PrCs more than printing complete new PrCs.
I could definitely get behind a spontaneous magus, and I hope that is in the works. It would need some flavor to not step on the magus toes, but I think it could be done without to much trouble.
Maybe the prepared bard could be what the archaeologist was going for, remove all of the perform stuff and create a limited casting skill/knowledge monkey with rogue aspects. I would absolutely play that and without the perform it wouldn't step on the Bard's toes.
I'm not as big on the divine arcane trickster, and I worry mixing monk and caster may be a bit to much synergy to balance without losing a lot of what makes each interesting. They kind of did that with Quigong, and going much farther I'm not too sure about.
SGG has a spontaneous Magus. Seems decently balanced, and is quite simple.
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SGG has a spontaneous Magus. Seems decently balanced, and is quite simple.
Interesting. Call me a purist, but I generally keep my games to original publisher.
Although SGG and Green Ronin do damn good work in my experience. Particularly Green Ronin.
SGG has a spontaneous Magus. Seems decently balanced, and is quite simple.Interesting. Call me a purist, but I generally keep my games to original publisher.
Although SGG and Green Ronin do damn good work in my experience. Particularly Green Ronin.
Purist. :p
The person who wrote that archetype, Owen K.C. Stephens, also did significant work on Ultimate Magic. And other paizo stuff. Not to derail the thread even more, but I just try to judge everything the same.
I'd like to echo the comments on the artificer / gadgeteer type, as well as the 1/2 BAB Divine Caster.
I think many of the "spontaneous / prepared" desires can be done quite easily by looking at other classes in the spell track of your class. For example, a prepared bard would just use the magus progression. Spontaneous druid would use the Sorcerer. Will it always be balanced? No, of course not. But it'll be close enough, I think.
Referring to the comment about bard spell list and the archaeologist, I think it can work pretty well. I have one that I'm about to play, and for my starting spells I've taken CLW and Solid Note. That last one is amazingly versatile. Need a grappling hook? Got it! Hammer? Yep!
I'd also be interested in seeing someone who uses spirits to help allies and hinder foes. The ancestor oracle comes close, but I think it's an interesting concept that can be explored further.
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Maybe the prepared bard could be what the archaeologist was going for, remove all of the perform stuff and create a limited casting skill/knowledge monkey with rogue aspects. I would absolutely play that and without the perform it wouldn't step on the Bard's toes.I think performance or something mechanically equivalent to performance is too central to the bard to drop in something that's intended to be a prepared bard. Some of the performances might go and the skin might change, but if it's not a 3/4 BAB party buffer it's not really filling the bardic role to my eyes and spells alone don't cut it in comparison.
A 3/4 arcane caster with 3/4 Bab and 6 skill points could do fine without bardic music if a 3/4 divine caster with 3/4 bab (inquisitor) can do fine.
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Sure, if there's some other ability of comparable power (like the judgment/bane combo) but he wouldn't be filling the bard role. When I say prepared bard I mean prepared bard, not magus with the bard spell list.Maybe the prepared bard could be what the archaeologist was going for, remove all of the perform stuff and create a limited casting skill/knowledge monkey with rogue aspects. I would absolutely play that and without the perform it wouldn't step on the Bard's toes.I think performance or something mechanically equivalent to performance is too central to the bard to drop in something that's intended to be a prepared bard. Some of the performances might go and the skin might change, but if it's not a 3/4 BAB party buffer it's not really filling the bardic role to my eyes and spells alone don't cut it in comparison.A 3/4 arcane caster with 3/4 Bab and 6 skill points could do fine without bardic music if a 3/4 divine caster with 3/4 bab (inquisitor) can do fine.
Like a prepared version of Archaeologist Archetype, basically. Although with an different spell list.
I am more excited about that Archetype than any other I have read because it is so close to the classic Indiana Jones I think a lot of want to play.
I just kind of wish they would make that a class, since it isn't really a bard or a rogue. Frankly look at Eando Kline and make that a full class rather than a multi-class hodgepodge.
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While I share a fear of class bloat, my fear generally comes more from making old classes obsolete or redundant rather than from actually having new classes.
So I wanted to post a thread for new class "concepts" where people could post ideas and discuss if there is a place in the game for them.
I'll start with a few.
1. Spontaneous Druid: The Oracle fills the spontaneous cleric niche, but there is surely room for a wild child of nature who gains spells through their natural connection to nature.
Those looking for such a class might want to keep an eye on a future issue of Kobold Quarterly ... say, the Winter issue for example ...
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He rises from the depths of obscurity, a flag in each hand. One bears the image of a woman bathed in flame--a magical paragon, yet without any spellcasting ability. The other pictures a magnificent warrior of the future, a strange tool in his hand and a mechanical companion beside him. He plants both flags in the ground and says,
"Fear not, people of these Paizo Messageboards. I have arrived, bearing the succulent fruits which you so desire. Fruits of supernatural and extraordinary power. Sweet, buttery fruits...of Justice."
Oh yeah. I'm pimping these again.
But seriously, my Engineer has functioned beautifully as a gadgeteer in my home games (and it has gone through quite a few versions so far).
And in regards to what some people have been suggesting:
SPONTANEOUS DRUID
While I can see why people might want this--in an attempt to balance out the "prepared-spontaneous" balance (wizard-sorcerer, cleric-oracle), and I definitely see the merit in such an idea, I really don't think this deserves its own class. You could easily do this by just making the druid a spontaneous caster.
Alternately, I'm playing in a kingmaker game where one of our members is playing an Oracle named "The Guide", and he's more druidy than most druids. So there's also an element of flavor that can be changed to fit whatever concept you want (for example, in that same game, I'm playing a weapon master monk who, through re-flavoring, is actually a swift blademaster).
ARCANE PALADIN/RANGER/4-LEVEL CASTER
I see no problem with this concept getting its own class, so long as the flavor (and mechanics) behind it are not just a high-BAB magus. I'd honestly like to see something original, like the hexblade was in 3.5. A novel concept that isn't just "sword guy who casts magic because this mechanical niche was left open."
MAGIC TANK
Eh...I suppose this could be something connected to the 4-level arcane caster. Although my Avatar, with a high charisma, does tank pretty well (charisma to HP at 3rd level).
SHAPESHIFTER
I think there might have been something like this in the most recent Wayfinder, though I could be mistaken. So far as creating a non-casting shapeshifter...I suppose it could be done, though I think it'd take some heavy flavoring to make it anything more than "lycanthrope in class form". I remember an idea I had a while ago for a full-BAB class that utilized evolution points. The concept was that it was infused with raw chaos, and so couldn't even keep its own form consistent, growing extra appendages and developing supernatural abilities seemingly at a random. I might just revisit that concept.
NON-MAGICAL DE-BUFFER
Does the Paizo Gunslinger not cover this niche? Granted, you have to wait a while, but it's still there. It has the ability to debuff enemies without calling for saves through the sheer force of awesome (NOTE: This is coming from a guy who doesn't like the Paizo gunslinger and re-designed it).
NON-MAGIC BATTLEFIELD CONTROLLER
Always had trouble with the term "Battlefield controller". I think, however, that an appropriate cavalier archetype could do this concept right.
MOBILITY COMBATANT
The Scout Rogue archetype and the Mobile Fighter are both relatively fantastic in their own right.
SKILL-BASED HEALER
Honestly, I think this just calls for more robust Heal skill rules, rather than its own class. I'm not mentioning Smilodan's "inventor" addendum to this because I already presented my engineer.
MAGIC-BASED SKILL MONKEY
I agree here that a new class is required for this. However...I think it shouldn't be a base class, but rather an Alternate class for the bard. I'm working on one currently called the "Venturer", and it's looking pretty good so far. All the skill-fun and casting without all the performance BS.
SPONTANEOUS MAGUS
It's a mechanic without a concept, really. One could easily just say "The magus is spontaneous now" and not much would really change. Without a real concept to back it up, I can't see this getting beyond the "planning" phase (though SGG's Vanguard is simple and balanced).
As for my own suggestions...
THE SUPERHERO
Nobody's really talking about this one, or at least not under this title. I want a class that just goes balls-out and lets you totally customize yourself from a group of powers. It'd likely be non-casting, and its abilities would range all over the place, from shooting webs to super-strength to flight. Most abilities would be extraordinary and supernatural, and it would essentially be a mutant from X-men or a conduit from the inFamous games.
"Why is that guy shooting lasers out of his eyes?"
"Because, Billy. Because."
THE AFFLICTED
You may wonder what I mean by this. Well, the idea is pretty simple. It's literally someone infected/cursed/has something forced upon them that grants them power. It could be a disease that twists your body into a spiny, armored shape, or maybe it's the chaos-born shapeshifter I mentioned before. Maybe they're cursed, and as they increase in level they slowly decay into the ranks of the undead. Essentially, I'm looking for a class that represents those who not only didn't choose to have the power they have, but had it forced upon them.
...
Well, I guess that's a little more than 2 cp.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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SPONTANEOUS DRUID
While I can see why people might want this--in an attempt to balance out the "prepared-spontaneous" balance (wizard-sorcerer, cleric-oracle), and I definitely see the merit in such an idea ...
I also think there is a lot of merit for this ... as I said, keep your eyes open to Kobold Quarterly, most likely the Winter issue ... :)
ARCANE PALADIN/RANGER/4-LEVEL CASTER
I see no problem with this concept getting its own class, so long as the flavor (and mechanics) behind it are not just a high-BAB magus. I'd honestly like to see something original, like the hexblade was in 3.5. A novel concept that isn't just "sword guy who casts magic because this mechanical niche was left open."
I might suggest that those looking for such a class take a look at the Battle Scion I did in the most recent issue of Wayfinder - this is exactly what I had in mind when I created it. It's a free download, so how can you go wrong? :)
SPONTANEOUS MAGUS
It's a mechanic without a concept, really. One could easily just say "The magus is spontaneous now" and not much would really change. Without a real concept to back it up, I can't see this getting beyond the "planning" phase (though SGG's Vanguard is simple and balanced).
Thanks for the shout out to the Vanguard! This was actually the very first thing I wrote for Super Genius Games (I've written and illustrated quite a bit for them since then - you can check out my profile if you're interested in that sort of thing :) The Vanguard seems to still be pretty popular, which is very rewarding!