I'm playing around with an Alchemist, Beastmorph Archetype with the feral mutegen discovery. What I want to make is a character who specializes in hand-to-hand fighting who transforms to make himself more powerful and specializes in claws and bite, but I'm not sure how the rules work with natural weapons.
I was thinking of multi-classing with Monk, but a monk's furry of blows doesn't work with natural weapons (go figure,) but what about style feats? Could he use scorpion style, drop into mantis style, use stunning fist, or anything like that with claws? Realistically I see no reason why not, but all those abilities just say "use with your unarmed strike," which according to the rules, natural weapons are different from.
And while we're on the subject of augmented strikes, if a monk or, say, this alchemist were to take some necromancy levels and cast chill touch, could he, instead of making touch attacks, just rip people with his claws and add the spell's damage to his successful attacks? Again it makes sense to me, but I've seen nothing in the rules to suggest one way or the other.
Realistically I see no reason why not, but all those abilities just say "use with your unarmed strike," which according to the rules, natural weapons are different from.
As you note, these feats state unarmed strike not natural weapon. So the rules are clear that the natural attack would not work. But, if you're a monk/alchemist you could just use your fist/foot and claws.
And while we're on the subject of augmented strikes, if a monk or, say, this alchemist were to take some necromancy levels and cast chill touch, could he, instead of making touch attacks, just rip people with his claws and add the spell's damage to his successful attacks? Again it makes sense to me, but I've seen nothing in the rules to suggest one way or the other.
And finally, yes you can use natural attacks to deliver touch spells. As you only have to touch the target with no particular attack form, the spell is discharged and you deal damage.
From the Combat Chapter:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
But, if you're a monk/alchemist you could just use your fist/foot and claws.
Do you mean using one fist and one claw? Again that makes sense to me, but can you mix those? If you punch and aren't a monk it's 1 attack. If you have claws and a bite you get 3. Can you switch one of those claws out for a fist?
Do you mean using one fist and one claw? Again that makes sense to me, but can you mix those? If you punch and aren't a monk it's 1 attack. If you have claws and a bite you get 3. Can you switch one of those claws out for a fist?
Yes you could do that, but I prefer the claw/claw/bite/Flurry of Blows kick/Flurry of Blows kick
Ok, that feat would make my life so much easier. Thanks.
Sounds like I'd want to mix him with the Unarmed Fighter archetype then. I don't get stunning fist, but I get a free style feat even if I don't yet qualify for it.
The rules I looked up said you can't mix natural weapons with furry of blows, it's one or the other not both. Am I wrong?
Err... a full attack action... is a full attack action? Flurry is not a full-round action which is different and would replace the normal Full Attack Action...
Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Natural Attack Rules:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
A full Attack action is a type of full-round action. It's under the heading of "Full-Round Actions" on page 187 of the Core Rulebook....
You are mistaken from a rules text perspective. Flurry of blows is employed in a Full Attack (which is a sub category of full round action)... a Full Attack lets you use all your attacks. A monk using flurry could do what I described above, if I didn't neglect to read this:
Flurry of Blows:
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
The above is a necessary inclusion in the rules as Flurry of Blows is a Full Attack Action.
So, if you like Kick/Kick/Bite/Claw/Claw might I suggest Two Weapon Fighting? :D
A simple full attack would work for Kick/bite/claw/claw
It is rather cheesey but I think it is legal to
Claw bab-5
Claw bab-5
Bite bab-5
Iteratives with armor spikes or bladed boots as normal.
See like I said goudatastic.
It is rather cheesey but I think it is legal to
Claw bab-5
Claw bab-5
Bite bab-5Iteratives with armor spikes or bladed boots as normal.
See like I said goudatastic.
Actually, it's more like
Claw BAB-5, 1/2 STR to damage
Claw BAB-5, 1/2 STR to damage
Bite BAB-5, 1/2 STR to damage
Iteratives with armor spikes as normal.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before.
You really can use your claws if you Full Attack & kick. I was trying to get you an extra attack through Flurry of Blows, but that's not possible. The extra attack is possible if you do normal Two Weapon Fighting though.
If you use a Full Attack (without two weapon fighting) you'll attack with your Kick at normal attack bonus, and your natural attacks at -5 (+ your Bab, + your attack roll modifier - for all of them).
I quoted the rules above, but I'll re-quote them for you:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
So I'm curious: how does this work if I have enough BAB to merit two attacks? say, if my normal is +6/+1, can I attack with the claws and bite each twice? Or would they still be one attack each? (in which case I would want to be kicking people and using the claws and bite at the -5)
Someone mentioned above this wasn't the best use of feral mutagen. I'm curious, what would people consider the best use?
I'm guessing your line of though is (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that since a full-attack action is making all your attacks, you should be able to use flurry of blows with whatever attackes he's using as part of the full-attack.
Yes, this is my line of thought. However, as I noted in the post above, this is explicitly ruled out in the clarification text for Flurry (which I didn't read all the way, my fault). This clarification (and limitation) is needed in the Flurry rules text because without it my point would be a valid one.
EDIT: yeah.. we're slow on the take today
Whether or not the unarmed strike is considered a primary weapon with the natural attacks as secondary, or if the unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon the other attacks all suffer a -5 penalty, could also be brought into play in regards to using that ability as well. It's a GM call, but a valid point worth FAQing.
I also thought this, but a monk's unarmed strike is only a natural weapon "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons"
So, no it would not be considered a natural attack and would incur the normal penalties for combining as I noted in my previous post to adam.
So I'm curious: how does this work if I have enough BAB to merit two attacks? say, if my normal is +6/+1, can I attack with the claws and bite each twice?
Natural attacks never get iteratives for having a high base attack bonus (this is different than normal attacks, and the trade off). You get more at lower levels but the number of attacks never goes up (without gaining more feats/class abilities/etc).
Actually, if I take feral combat training, it says I can use that natural weapon with a flurry of blows, so I could go kick/kick/claw/claw. I'd have to take it twice if I wanted to get the bite in there.
Actually, if I take feral combat training, it says I can use that natural weapon with a flurry of blows, so I could go kick/kick/claw/claw. I'd have to take it twice if I wanted to get the bite in there.
Woot! That sounds pretty cool.
So it says "If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
Last thing I need to know: does that mean use them alongside your flurry of blows (kick/kick/claw/claw/bite?) or use it to make the flurry of blows (bite/bite/claw/claw?) And at higher levels, does that mean I'd get the attacks at lower BABs like all high BAB people get, or would I still be stuck with the above number of attacks, no matter how high a level I reached? (in essence, kick/kick/kick/bite/claw/claw, or still just bite/bite/claw/claw?)
It could still be good then, as all the attacks would be made at the high attack BAB rather than the degration by -5 incriments.
From my understanding (and I want clarification on this) there are three ways this could go:
Either forget the obscure rule and go with two-weapon fighting and multi-attack:
Kick BAB -2
Kick BAB -2
(other attacks as dictated by having a BAB of 6 or over)
claw BAB -2 and 1/2 strength
claw BAB -2 and 1/2 strength
Bite BAB -2 and 1/2 strength
or, go with flurry of blows and two Feral Combat feats, which should be one of two things:
1.
Kick BAB -2
Kick BAB -2
(other attacks as dictated by having a BAB of 6 or over)
Claw BAB
Claw BAB
Bite BAB
or:
Bite BAB -2
Bite BAB -2
(reading it, if it doesn't count as flurry option 1 then I think the claws couldn't be used conjointly with the flurry itself, as much as I wish I could add in a Claw BAB and Claw BAB to the second flurry option)
So which would it be? This will really impact my build, depending on what everyone thinks...
So which would it be? This will really impact my build, depending on what everyone thinks...
Cool thing to note as you flurry, your attack bonus starts at -1 for the kicks see the monk table here: PRD Monk Page
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
In my opinion, after reading Feral Combat closely, I would say that if you were to flurry with Feral Combat your stats would be:
Assuming Level 1:
Left Kick -1 + 1x STR
Right Kick -1 + 1x STR
Bite -6 + .5 STR
Left Claw -6 + .5 STR
Right Claw -6 + .5 STR
But, you need Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Focus (Claw), Feral Combat (Bite) and Feral Combat (Claw) in order to do all this.
So it says "If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
Last thing I need to know: does that mean use them alongside your flurry of blows (kick/kick/claw/claw/bite?) or use it to make the flurry of blows (bite/bite/claw/claw?) And at higher levels, does that mean I'd get the attacks at lower BABs like all high BAB people get, or would I still be stuck with the above number of attacks, no matter how high a level I reached? (in essence, kick/kick/kick/bite/claw/claw, or still just bite/bite/claw/claw?)
It could still be good then, as all the attacks would be made at the high attack BAB rather than the degration by -5 incriments.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So, my reading of it is that Feral combat training enables you to use FoB with Natural attacks so your natural attack sequence goes from claw/claw/bite to claw/claw/claw/bite with -1 AB. (Assuming you picked claw for Feral Training. If you pick Bite it goes to Claw/claw/Bite/Bite.)
All attacks use your Full Strength Bonus, as you are not integrating manufactured weapon attacks into the attack routine.
If you did swap one of your claw attacks for a kick, the rest would be secondary attacks at -5 AB (for a total of -6AB) (-2AB with Multiattack for a total of -3AB). Not sure if it is half STR or not as FoB says all full while Natural says secondary half - not sure which takes precedence here. Either way, probably not worth it.