Greetings!
I am fairly new to pathfinder so bare with me :)
I will give you two examples that I would love to have my questions answered for.
**************************
Example 1.)
I take one lvl of sorcerer and get all prereqs for Dragon Disciple. Then the next 10 lvls I put into dragon disciple prestige class. So I am basically lvl 11 now.
My questions now are..When I cast a spell am I considered being a lvl 11 sorcerer then?
To determine how many spells per day I get at lvl 11 as a dragon disciple I can see that the dragon disciple gains 7 "+1 level of existing spellcasting class". So that should make me look at the sorcerer table and count myself as a lvl 8 sorcerer and then I should get 6 1st , 6 2nd, 5 3rd and 3 4th lvl spells per day. Is this accurate?
Do I also gain the spells known as a 11 sorcerer?
Basically I am considered being a 11 sorcerer with all that's included (bloodline powers, bloodline spells), just that I get some flaws (less spells per day) but also some goodies ie natural armor increase, ability boosts etc?
**************************
Example 2
My character are at the following:
2 lvls cleric
2 lvls sorcerer
Then I lvl up mystic Theurge 10 lvls.
Does this mean that I can cast spells as if I was a lvl 12 cleric and a lvl 12 sorcerer?
Then what about Channel Energy..is that counted as if I was a lvl 12 cleric? To me it appears that I would only do the channel energies as if I was a lvl 2 cleric since this ->> "He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly"
Now let's make this a tad harder. Now the next 6 lvls I decide that lvl up 6 lvls in Dragon Disciple (now I am a lvl 20 character). Now let's see if I understand this correctly:
# I should be still be considered as being a lvl 12 cleric (2 cleric + 10 Mystic Theurge) when it comes to the spells and I get spells per day as if I was a lvl 12 cleric
# I should be considered as a lvl 18 sorcerer (2 sorc + 10 mystic theurge + 6 from Dragon Disciple). I would however only get spells per day as if I was a 16 sorcerer (loosing one at lvl 1 dragon disciple and loosing another at lvl 5 dd).
# Now to the rough stuff.. Normally if I was one lvl sorc and then gained 10 lvls of dragon disciple then I would have had all the draconic bloodline powers and bloodline spells that a lvl 11 sorc would get. In my example above I would only get the bloodline powers and bloodline spells as if I was a lvl 8 sorcerer (this due to during 10 of my lvls as a Mystic Theurge I can't gain other advantages then the spells known, spells per day and spell caster lvl. So this means that when I start to lvl Dragon Disciple and gaining "normal benefits of sorcerer lvls" then I am still considered as a lvl 2 sorcerer when it comes to the bloodline powers and spells.
**************************
Have I understood everything correctly? :)
Thanks in advance and sorry for a quite long post
/Thrilled
Greetings!
I am fairly new to pathfinder so bare with me :)
I will give you two examples that I would love to have my questions answered for.
**************************
Example 1.)
I take one lvl of sorcerer and get all prereqs for Dragon Disciple. Then the next 10 lvls I put into dragon disciple prestige class. So I am basically lvl 11 now.
My questions now are..When I cast a spell am I considered being a lvl 11 sorcerer then?
Well you will need to take more then just 1 level of sorceror to qualify for dragon disciple (at least other levels like sorceror1/Paladin 4) but anyway lets look at you example.
To determine how many spells per day I get at lvl 11 as a dragon disciple I can see that the dragon disciple gains 7 "+1 level of existing spellcasting class". So that should make me look at the sorcerer table and count myself as a lvl 8 sorcerer and then I should get 6 1st , 6 2nd, 5 3rd and 3 4th lvl spells per day. Is this accurate?
Do I also gain the spells known as a 11 sorcerer?
Basically I am considered being a 11 sorcerer with all that's included (bloodline powers, bloodline spells), just that I get some flaws (less spells per day) but also some goodies ie natural armor increase, ability boosts etc?
When a prestige class says +1 to existing spellcasting class, then you gain all abilities around casting spells as if you were advancing in the class. Basically everyone under the 'spells' section of the sorceror (or other caster rules) So a Paladin4/Sorceror1/Dragon Disciple 10 would have spells per day and spells known of an 8th level sorceror.
Keep in mind some abilities are related to spell casting but not under the same umbrella. For instance the wizard's spellbook is a different rule, and a different ability then their spellcasting, so if you take a prestige class along with wizard, you dont get the 2 free spells every level when the prestige class advances your spell casting.
**************************
Example 2
My character are at the following:
2 lvls cleric
2 lvls sorcererThen I lvl up mystic Theurge 10 lvls.
This isnt actually possible, you need 2nd level SPELLS in divine and arcane casting, not being a second level caster. You would need 3 levels of cleric and 4 of sorceror to do mystic theurge with that combination.
Does this mean that I can cast spells as if I was a lvl 12 cleric and a lvl 12 sorcerer?
Yes if you could qualify with those levels, but spells per day, caster level and spells known (for the sorc) do stack the way you are thinking.
Then what about Channel Energy..is that counted as if I was a lvl 12 cleric? To me it appears that I would only do the channel energies as if I was a lvl 2 cleric since this ->> "He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly"
Other abilities dont level unless the prestige class says it does (like the dragon disciples bloodline powers). When you go into a prestige class you are trading what your class(es) normally get for what the prestige class does. So channel energy would not increase. Only spells know and spells per day go along with +1level of existing spellcasting class.
Now let's make this a tad harder. Now the next 6 lvls I decide that lvl up 6 lvls in Dragon Disciple (now I am a lvl 20 character). Now let's see if I understand this correctly:# I should be still be considered as being a lvl 12 cleric (2 cleric + 10 Mystic Theurge) when it comes to the spells and I get spells per day as if I was a lvl 12 cleric
# I should be considered as a lvl 18 sorcerer (2 sorc + 10 mystic theurge + 6 from Dragon Disciple). I would however only get spells per day as if I was a 16 sorcerer (loosing one at lvl 1 dragon disciple and loosing another at lvl 5 dd).
# Now to the rough stuff.. Normally if I was one lvl sorc and then gained 10 lvls of dragon disciple then I would have had all the draconic bloodline powers and bloodline spells that a lvl 11 sorc would get. In my example above I would only get the bloodline powers and bloodline spells as if I was a lvl 8 sorcerer (this due to during 10 of my lvls as a Mystic Theurge I can't gain other advantages then the spells known, spells per day and spell caster lvl. So this means that when I start to lvl Dragon Disciple and gaining "normal benefits of sorcerer lvls" then I am still considered as a lvl 2 sorcerer when it comes to the bloodline powers and spells.
Seems like you have it right.
First, read the prerequisites of the prestige classes again. The earliest you can take dragon disciple is level 6 (requires 5 ranks of knowledge (arcana) and you can only take one rank per level). Mystic theurge requires you to be able to cast both arcane and divine 2nd level spells. Sorcerer gains 2nd level spells at level 4 and cleric gains 2nd level spells at level 3.
The bloodline powers granted by dragon disciple only increase those listed under 'bloodline powers' in sorcerer. That's claws, natural armour, breath weapon, wings, etc. You also gain the bloodline spells but only if you're already capable of casting spells of that level. You don't gain the bloodline feats except when granted specifically.
A sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 10 knows and casts spells as a 12th level sorcerer. The bloodline level would be enough to gain 15th level bloodline powers and spells but since your highest level spell is 6th, you can't don't gain form of the dragon II until you gain two more levels of sorcerer spellcasting.
If we try to fit this into your 20th level character, we get the following:
Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Dragon Disciple 3
This character knows and casts spells as a sorcerer 16 and cleric 13, and has bloodline powers as a draconic sorcerer 7.
Thanks a ton everyone! Very much appreciated!
The clarification regarding the prestigeclasses helped alot (and ruined some ;))
I will try to explain what I basically are after and maybe you are able to guide me more to the direction.
My goal was to have a caster that could actually deal some melee damage as well as nuking+healing. Regarding the AC I was looking to get a decent AC that made it a bit hard to hit me. So my initial thoughs was to use Crossblooded, then take the Empyreal (wildblooded) and Draconic as secondary.
Empyreal Bloodline Arcana gives:
Unlike most sorcerers whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use pure willpower to master and fuel your magic. You use your Wisdom, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DCs of your spells. You gain a +2 bonus on all Heal and Knowledge (religion) checks.
This ability replaces the Celestial Bloodline Arcana.
I was hoping to aim for at least 7 lvls of Dragon Disciple to gain the ability boosts as well as the natural AC.
Well, since you guys are by far more experienced then me then I will ask you for advices. So let's try to figure out a build that I will like.
So to elaborate a bit:
The requirements:
* Sorcerer with an decent enough DC on his spells
* Self heals
* Melee capability (was thinking of dual wielding actually)
* Decent AC
Optional (these can be exchanged to what you see more fit to get the results I am looking for)
* Mystic Theurge
* Dragon Disciple
* Crossblooded + Wildblooded
* Divine spellcaster class
* Maybe monk to gain wis bonus to AC
Looking forward to hear your suggestions!
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
Thanks a ton everyone! Very much appreciated!
The clarification regarding the prestigeclasses helped alot (and ruined some ;))
I will try to explain what I basically are after and maybe you are able to guide me more to the direction.
My goal was to have a caster that could actually deal some melee damage as well as nuking+healing. Regarding the AC I was looking to get a decent AC that made it a bit hard to hit me. So my initial thoughs was to use Crossblooded, then take the Empyreal (wildblooded) and Draconic as secondary.
Empyreal Bloodline Arcana gives:
Unlike most sorcerers whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use pure willpower to master and fuel your magic. You use your Wisdom, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, maximum spell level you can cast, and the save DCs of your spells. You gain a +2 bonus on all Heal and Knowledge (religion) checks.
This ability replaces the Celestial Bloodline Arcana.
I was hoping to aim for at least 7 lvls of Dragon Disciple to gain the ability boosts as well as the natural AC.
Well, since you guys are by far more experienced then me then I will ask you for advices. So let's try to figure out a build that I will like.
So to elaborate a bit:
The requirements:
* Sorcerer with an decent enough DC on his spells
* Self heals
* Melee capability (was thinking of dual wielding actually)
* Decent ACOptional (these can be exchanged to what you see more fit to get the results I am looking for)
* Mystic Theurge
* Dragon Disciple
* Crossblooded + Wildblooded
* Divine spellcaster class
* Maybe monk to gain wis bonus to ACLooking forward to hear your suggestions!
Thanks in advance!
/Thrilled
I think you are trying to do too much. You will end up not really being good at anything. The reality is that multiclassing primary spell casters is pretty much never a good idea, and to be honest, the mystic theurge is a trap. I strongly recommend against it. The level of spells is very important, and you dont want to be waiting 4 levels longer then normal to get a given spell level.
As for crossblooding the dragon disciple with Empyreal/dragon disciple bloodlines and using monk...that is actually a really good idea. You need to add a combat class to fill out a dragon disciple, and monk with that bloodline combination ought to work rather well. Your AC would end up being very high (Natural armor bonuses, Mage armor, and Monk ac bonuses). I may have to snag this for an upcoming game I'm in.
Based on your requirements, I suggest you drop the following: two-weapon fighting (unless you take Fighter levels for all of the feats you'll need), Mystic Theurge (it's already too involved for a straight spellcaster without mixing in melee), divine spellcasting (basically the same reason).
Empyreal/Draconic Sorcerer seems like a decent choice, especially if you want to mix in Monk. Your main stat will be Wisdom, and Monks can already self heal (although it's a bit crappy). Since you'll be focusing on Wisdom as a Monk, it should help out with your spellcasting and spell DC naturally. Keep in mind that being crossblooded makes you lose out on one spell known at every level. If you are a human Sorcerer, you can counter this with the alternative favored class options, but it won't help too much anyway since you're multi-classing.
The only drawback I see is that you are mixing classes with low and medium bab progressions. Even Dragon Disciple is only a medium bab progression (which I think is odd). Your attack rolls will suffer due to this, but I guess there are ways around that (like magic weapons and other spells).
And speaking of attacking, I'd stick with two-handed weapons (or one-handed weapons in two hands) instead of dual-wielding. They will benefit more from the Dragon Disciple's Strength increase.
Another question that popped my mind...
Can a magus become a dragon disciple?
Thanks in advance!
** PS Sorry for my newbieness DS **
/Thrilled
|
As Kolokotroni said, trying to be good at two different things is hard enough, at three, very much so. I'd recommend going full Magus and forget about healing. No dual-wielding, but you can cast and swing the sword at the same time. Build for critical hits.
I really like the sorc/monk/dragon disciple idea, BUT... the Celestial Bloodline would be required to have the Empyreal Bloodline Arcana. Which means you can't have the Draconic Bloodline, which means you can't be a Dragon Disciple. If you don't have high WIS, the level in monk isn't worth it.
Instead, using Empyreal Bloodline for a 6 Sorcerer / 1 Sohei (monk archetype) / Eldritch Knight. Stats should be STR/WIS > DEX/CON > INT/CHA (16/14/13/7/16/7 with 20 pts). You want the magical knack trait. Be human, pick Sorc as favored, pick hitpoints. For feats, you want Toughness, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Intensified Spell, Arcane Strike, Dodge, perhaps Spell Focus (x) and Power Attack. Don't invest in Use Magic Device, since you should dump charisma. You'll have a good AC, but a bad BAB. The Magus is better.
Another option is to just go straight to dragon disciple. Be a half-elf and take Sorc/Dragon Disciple as your favored classes, and choose UMD for your skill focus and keep pumping it up as you level. You can use wands to self heal. With good starting STR, your melee ability will become acceptable as your Disciple level goes up. Ultimately, the sorcerer isn't really a good choice if you want to be capable in melee. And to get real self healing, ALL your other capabilities will suffer, and the healing will be no better than the wand of cure light wounds.
If you're more interested in healing, don't bother with melee and your AC will be modest at best. Put everything in WIS > DEX/CON > STR > INT/CHA. Go 4 Sorc/3 Cleric(or Druid)/Mystic Theurge using the Empyreal Bloodline Arcana, pick up the magical knack trait for the Sorc. You'll be able to cast spells all day, but they're going to be sub-par. At 9th level you can finally cast a 3rd level spell, which is bad. A normal wizard is casting 5th level spells at 9th level.
As for the magus going Dragon Disciple, no, they cannot. You'll need a level of Wizard with the feat Spell Mastery or a level of Sorcerer.
As Kolokotroni said, trying to be good at two different things is hard enough, at three, very much so. I'd recommend going full Magus and forget about healing. No dual-wielding, but you can cast and swing the sword at the same time. Build for critical hits.
I really like the sorc/monk/dragon disciple idea, BUT... the Celestial Bloodline would be required to have the Empyreal Bloodline Arcana. Which means you can't have the Draconic Bloodline, which means you can't be a Dragon Disciple. If you don't have high WIS, the level in monk isn't worth it.
Thats why he was going crossblooded, it would allow him to be both. I think a crossblooded draconic/x sorceror would qualify for dragon disciple.
And to the OP, no you cant be a magus and go dragon disciple. The magus is a prepared caster, the dragon disciple requires you to be able to cast 1st level spells without preparation (spontaneously).
|
|
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game draws upon a central idea, a basic concept representing Classes from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
This suggests that one cannot be both Wildblooded and Crossblooded. They both affect the same thing (though the abilities of Wildblooded fits within Crossblooded), thus cannot be both.
However, I'd like official word: can a character be these two archetypes in this case? In the meantime I'll start a new topic 'bout it.
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game draws upon a central idea, a basic concept representing Classes from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.This suggests that one cannot be both Wildblooded and Crossblooded. They both affect the same thing (though the abilities of Wildblooded fits within Crossblooded), thus cannot be both.
However, I'd like official word: can a character be these two archetypes in this case? In the meantime I'll start a new topic 'bout it.
I see your points regarding the extreme multiclassing and I am willing to drop that :)
However the Monk/Empyreal/Crossblooded/Dragon Disciple idea should be workable imo.
Since it also clearly says that you can choose as mny archetypes you want as long they don't exchange the same class feature. First of all the crossblooded clearly allows 2 bloodlines to be taken. Empyreal is a bloodline albeit a mutated one (still a bloodline) and so is draconic. So basically what it would say is that one of the sorcerers parents was a Wildblooded Empyreal and the other parent was a draconic. Which of course give you the inheritage of empyreal/draconic. So if that would not be allowed then I guess the whole Crossblooded Achetype would fall inte to the "not allowed" category.
To me it makes sense to 110%. However it's always nice with some official words on it :)
Since you all are such vast info source I should as well ask you what archtype/prestige classes are a suitable choice for a magus? (better to keep two paths open)
/Thrilled
I wouldn't use any prestige classes whatsoever with the Magus. As for archetypes, people seem to go crazy for being a Bladebound/Kensai Magus. Bladebound requires that the weapon be a one-handed slashing weapon, and I had a silly idea of choosing the whip. Melee touch attack spells with reach are fun. So is tripping. But most people go for the katana/scimitar because it meshes well with the whole spell crit thing that Magi can do.
You can even dump Strength and do a Dexterity build with the scimitar if you use the Dervish Dance feat from the Inner Sea World Guide. That also seems to be a popular path for Magi players. If you really, really, really want a prestige class you could be a Duelist, but then it makes the Kensai archetype a bit redundant. Just stick with the Magus all the way if that's what you end up choosing.
I am fairly new to pathfinder so bare with me :)
Ooh, cheeky!
I wouldn't use any prestige classes whatsoever with the Magus. As for archetypes, people seem to go crazy for being a Bladebound/Kensai Magus. Bladebound requires that the weapon be a one-handed slashing weapon, and I had a silly idea of choosing the whip. Melee touch attack spells with reach are fun. So is tripping. But most people go for the katana/scimitar because it meshes well with the whole spell crit thing that Magi can do.
Oooh, I never thought of using a whip for a Magus. I like that idea.
My goal was to have a caster that could actually deal some melee damage as well as nuking+healing. Regarding the AC I was looking to get a decent AC that made it a bit hard to hit me.I think the only class that comes close to that combination is the urban druid.
Eh, the bard can do it... somewhat. They aren't great at healing, though they have a few cure X wounds on their list. However, they could be ok in dealing damage, have a few damage spells (not great, but some... although I'd go for buffing/debuffing, they are better there) and could make themselves somewhat survivable with the right gear or spell. An arcane duelist can fight in full plate and with a small shield and cast without any problems (a small shield doesn't prevent you from using that hand for somatic components as far as I know).