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Let's start another great debate: how surprise should work when coupled with teleportation.
I see a few possible scenarios:
1) Group A teleport to location X and in that location there is group B.
Neither group ambushes the other, there is no surprise round all people involved get normal initiative rolls. Normal flat footed rules.
2) Group A scry location X, see group B and then teleport there.
Group A ambushes group B, they automatically get a surprise round.
Group B don't get to roll perception.
3) Group A scry location X, see group B but the scrying attempt is detected, group A teleport to location X.
Group B is aware of something happening, group A has a better awareness of the situation.
How you handle the surprise part of this encounter?
Perception don't seem the right skill. The attacker weren't there until they teleported in, so nothing to "perceive".
Spellcraft to notice the spell activating? What DC?
Other skills?
Maybe party B has some chance to surprise members of party A as they have moved around from where they were last seen or they were unseen by the scrying party (outside the spell area of effect, under mind blank, invisible, ecc.)?
Let's start another great debate: how surprise should work when coupled with teleportation.
I see a few possible scenarios:
1) Group A teleport to location X and in that location there is group B.
Neither group ambushes the other, there is no surprise round all people involved get normal initiative rolls. Normal flat footed rules.2) Group A scry location X, see group B and then teleport there.
Group A ambushes group B, they automatically get a surprise round.
Group B don't get to roll perception.3) Group A scry location X, see group B but the scrying attempt is detected, group A teleport to location X.
Group B is aware of something happening, group A has a better awareness of the situation.
How you handle the surprise part of this encounter?
Perception don't seem the right skill. The attacker weren't there until they teleported in, so nothing to "perceive".
Spellcraft to notice the spell activating? What DC?
Other skills?
Maybe party B has some chance to surprise members of party A as they have moved around from where they were last seen or they were unseen by the scrying party (outside the spell area of effect, under mind blank, invisible, ecc.)?
1) If none of the groups knew the other were there, the Perception to everyone. Those who pass the DC get to act in the surprise round.
2) Group A Ambush group B, but group B still roll for Perception to see who gets to act in the surprise round, unless group A cant be seen (like having Invisibility).
3) Well only the person or people who pass the scry DC might be aware that "you are being watch", still that wouldnt tell group B that group A will appear out of nowhere with a Teleport, so they can still be ambushed since they dont know they are going to eb attacked nor the dirrection of the attack.
Notes:
Perception is still the right skill to roll during a surprise round, a high Perceptive person means that he/she is very aware of the surroundings and even a quick flash (such as teleport) or a small sound (like a nail drop) can be seen/hear but of course the GM will put an appropiate DC for how hard the situation could be see/hear.
Someone who rolled a perception of 10 would be surprised but someone who rolled a 40 probably even saw the instant in which the teleported group appeared and he turned around immediately.
There is no spellcraft because group B didnt saw the spell being cast. The other use of spellcraft could be to identify an ongoing spell with duration but this ones is Instant.
Its highly unlikely that group B can surprise group A, but yah unless a lot of time had passed from the scrying and now group A wouldnt know where group B is, but assuming they would teleport right after the scrying then it would be impossible to surprise back.
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1) If none of the groups knew the other were there, the Perception to everyone. Those who pass the DC get to act in the surprise round.
Perception against what DC?
Initiative show how fast you are at reacting to a new situation.To me it seem the perfect meter to see who react in this situation.
2) Group A Ambush group B, but group B still roll for Perception to see who gets to act in the surprise round, unless group A cant be seen
(like having Invisibility).
Against, wuat DC? Based on what?
3) Well only the person or people who pass the scry DC might be aware that "you are being watch", still that wouldnt tell group B that group A will appear out of nowhere with a Teleport, so they can still be ambushed since they dont know they are going to eb attacked nor the dirrection of the attack.
Why only the people that noticed the sensor? Saying "we are scried" don't take much time, it is a free action. Teleport instead take a standard action.
Notes:
Perception is still the right skill to roll during a surprise round, a high Perceptive person means that he/she is very aware of the surroundings and even a quick flash (such as teleport) or a small sound (like a nail drop) can be seen/hear but of course the GM will put an appropiate DC for how hard the situation could be see/hear.Someone who rolled a perception of 10 would be surprised but someone who rolled a 40 probably even saw the instant in which the teleported group appeared and he turned around immediately.
There is no spellcraft because group B didnt saw the spell being cast. The other use of spellcraft could be to identify an ongoing spell with duration but this ones is Instant.
Its highly unlikely that group B can surprise group A, but yah unless a lot of time had passed from the scrying and now group A wouldnt know where group B is, but assuming they would teleport right after the
scrying then it would be impossible to surprise back.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
Situation 1): both party are not aware. No surprise round.
Situation 2): situation B. It seem the perfect situation where the "may" should not become "will".
Before the teleport there is nothing to perceive (it the party members have failed in perceiving the scrying sensor). After the teleport side A is already in full attacking gear, while side B need the time to take stock.
Only the guys with uncanny dodge on side B get to act.
Situation 3) is the dicey one. Side B know they are under scrutiny but don't know when the attack will come. Like any ambush situation to act you need to notice the ambush. Essentially you need to notice the second the teleport happen, not when the other guys start attacking.
About ambushing the teleporting guys, note that I cited people already hidden before being scried or invisible to the scrying sensor.
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I'm hardly unusual among most GMs I know in that I have house rules for teleportation and similar movement.
Basically I make non-line of sight teleportation disorienting and loud. The noise I justify by the matter that you suddenly displaced to teleport into your location. The disorientation I reflect by making anyone nearby effectively automatically have a surprise round on you, and no, I don't let diviners or the like get their ability to act in such surprise rounds (for one thing, it doesn't fit the fluff).
The rules don't really go into this much, but I suggest having a strong bias against the party that teleports in (particularly as it will almost always be buffed) versus the party that is teleported to. I've also in the past had rules that any teleport beyond line of sight also shaves 3 hours off the durations of any spells you have running (astral plane time passing differently hand-waving, but the real reason is to strip any buffs).
Interesting. Not my way of doing things but still worth some thought.
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Diego,
If you don't take steps at the system and campaign level, scry & die becomes a game-killing tactic. Hitting another group buffed when they're not buffed is an obscene advantage, especially now that most buff spells have shorter durations (when people could maintain buffs more or less all the time, this was less of an issue). Adding possible surprise on that compounds the issue. What this results in is nearly all parties on both sides basically going turtle, which in most cases isn't very fun.
My opinion is that most people forget the drawback build in the teleport spell.
You don't get to teleport to a unknown location only seeing the 10' around the scryed guy.Teleporting require "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination" . Note that location part.
You see me through a webcam. I am in a small room, with a bed behind me covered in books. At the right of the bed there is a bookase. a computer in front of me on a desk and another bookcase on the right.
printer and telephone on the left. A window on the left too, and maybe you get to see a bit of gravel on the courtyard a story below my window.
What street? What city? What nation?
So you don't have an idea of my location.
It is dark outside. You can try to guess a possible longitude, with a big margin of error.
Perusing my posts you can probably get the nation and even an idea of the region.
Still insufficient for a teleport.
Maybe after a few hours or days of scrying you get enough informations, but in the meantime I get teens or hundreds of rolls to notice you scrying and taking countermeasures.
If you read the RAW of the spell even Grater Teleport will not circumvent the need of the "clear idea of the location". It only circumvent the need to have seen it and avoid the risk of mis teleporting.
People seem too much used to computer games where the opposition never truly react. Scry and fry is a great tactic there, but not in a world where the NPC or PC react and take countermeasures, from lead lined chambers to Mage sanctum, from Delayed teleport (one of few the 3.5 spells that I will probably "import" in Pathfider) to treating the house walls with gorgon blood to avoid teleportation (a old 1rst ed rule).
It will be costly but my world will have system to block teleportation if the target is prepared without the need to resort to nerf the spell in his regular use.
1) Group A teleport to location X and in that location there is group B.
Neither group ambushes the other, there is no surprise round all people involved get normal initiative rolls. Normal flat footed rules.
Ok fine if you stated that neither group is surprised then both groups should be aware of the other somehow by notice the other already, so then this is a completely normal flow of battle.
Perception against what DC?
Initiative show how fast you are at reacting to a new situation.
To me it seem the perfect meter to see who react in this situation.
DC would be notice a visible creature DC 0 then add up any other modifier that would apply, like distance, some circustance DC for being unexpected and any other thing you think appropiate. Its a low DC so most people with rank on perception would be able to see them.
Yes initiative measure how fast you react but if you arent aware initiative is meaningless since you can not roll it during surprise.
2) Yes you always get Perception as long as you are able hear or see something. The Perception DC would still be similar as the one I say above.
Why only the people that noticed the sensor? Saying "we are scried" don't take much time, it is a free action. Teleport instead take a standard action.
Well yes you are correct assuming the person who noticed the scry say the others "Oh we are being watched" I guess could make the other aware of the situation. Still you only know you are being scryed, you dont know anything else behind what your enemy is thinking to do. So everyone will lower their guard sooner or later since group B doesnt know if group A will ever attack nor when will they do. In fact group B doesnt even know how many people are in group A nor who are they. So I Say group B can still be surprise anyhow.
Situation 3) is the dicey one. Side B know they are under scrutiny but don't know when the attack will come. Like any ambush situation to act you need to notice the ambush. Essentially you need to notice the second the teleport happen, not when the other guys start attacking.
Yup thats whats the Perception is for. To notice when the teleporting froup arrived.
About ambushing the teleporting guys, note that I cited people already hidden before being scried or invisible to the scrying sensor.
Invisible before Scry
Umm if group B were invisible from the start or undetectable by scry then group A wouldnt even think to teleport to them or attack them since cant see them.
Invisible after Scry
First is that even when people notice "oh we are being watched", this doesnt means the scrying had ended so group B could invisible but group A would see them doing it, so group A could prepare more to make a better ambush and to see them while invisible. So group A still would have the advantage.
It is highly unlikely group B ever gets an advantage on any of the situations because they dont know if the people scrying will come to them or when will they be attacked. So even if group B gets invisible without group A see them through scrying it doesnt means group A will arrive soon. So group B could wait in vain for something that will not happen and when they least expect it (perhaps invisibility had already wore off) then they could get attack. It will be quite unlucky for group A arrive at a time where group be was hidding and waiting for them.
Let's start another great debate: how surprise should work when coupled with teleportation.
I see a few possible scenarios:
1) Group A teleport to location X and in that location there is group B.
Neither group ambushes the other, there is no surprise round all people involved get normal initiative rolls. Normal flat footed rules.2) Group A scry location X, see group B and then teleport there.
Group A ambushes group B, they automatically get a surprise round.
Group B don't get to roll perception.3) Group A scry location X, see group B but the scrying attempt is detected, group A teleport to location X.
Group B is aware of something happening, group A has a better awareness of the situation.
How you handle the surprise part of this encounter?
Perception don't seem the right skill. The attacker weren't there until they teleported in, so nothing to "perceive".
Spellcraft to notice the spell activating? What DC?
Other skills?
Maybe party B has some chance to surprise members of party A as they have moved around from where they were last seen or they were unseen by the scrying party (outside the spell area of effect, under mind blank, invisible, ecc.)?
In resume group B have all the disadvantage on almost every situation.
Scying is such a cheating tool that could even use audiable part to hear the party being ambush to be sure when to strike. Group A wouldnt attack group be if someone from group B told the rest "We are being watched". Group A would wait until a better time to ambush.
Also by hearing the group B talk, group A could get additional info of location or other things. Even if they were in a small room they scrying group could wait until they get out of the room to have a better view of the situation. Scrying aint an instant spell so group B could be watched for a while.
Perception is absolute the wrong skill for this situation.
Generally speaking, if Group A teleports to Group B, they are going to be in plain sight(DC 0) at a range of less than 100 feet. That is a DC 10 or less check. If you are at a level where teleport is an option, almost any PC and NPC will make that check on a 1. so saying that you should use perception basically translates to no surprise round.
Generally speaking the group that is ready for a fight should get a suprise round. I would make one RAI exception. I would apply the dimension door effect to the person who casts teleport, causing them to lose their action in the surprise round(if any).
A) No surprise round.
B) Group A(except for the person who cast teleport) gets a surprise round.
C) Group A(except for the person who cast teleport) gets a surprise round.
As for C, I don't think "I have a feeling someone is watching us" directly translates to "We are about to be attacked" without a bit of metagaming.
Perception is absolute the wrong skill for this situation.
Generally speaking, if Group A teleports to Group B, they are going to be in plain sight(DC 0) at a range of less than 100 feet. That is a DC 10 or less check. If you are at a level where teleport is an option, almost any PC and NPC will make that check on a 1. so saying that you should use perception basically translates to no surprise round.
Generally speaking the group that is ready for a fight should get a suprise round. I would make one RAI exception. I would apply the dimension door effect to the person who casts teleport, causing them to lose their action in the surprise round(if any).
A) No surprise round.
B) Group A(except for the person who cast teleport) gets a surprise round.
C) Group A(except for the person who cast teleport) gets a surprise round.As for C, I don't think "I have a feeling someone is watching us" directly translates to "We are about to be attacked" without a bit of metagaming.
Umm definitely makes sense that the one that cast the teleport gets no surprise round (like Dimension Door), since he would had used his action but the rest of the group A being dragged by the teleport could still make an action.
Interesting. Not my way of doing things but still worth some thought.I'm hardly unusual among most GMs I know in that I have house rules for teleportation and similar movement.
Basically I make non-line of sight teleportation disorienting and loud. The noise I justify by the matter that you suddenly displaced to teleport into your location. The disorientation I reflect by making anyone nearby effectively automatically have a surprise round on you, and no, I don't let diviners or the like get their ability to act in such surprise rounds (for one thing, it doesn't fit the fluff).
The rules don't really go into this much, but I suggest having a strong bias against the party that teleports in (particularly as it will almost always be buffed) versus the party that is teleported to. I've also in the past had rules that any teleport beyond line of sight also shaves 3 hours off the durations of any spells you have running (astral plane time passing differently hand-waving, but the real reason is to strip any buffs).
Diego,
If you don't take steps at the system and campaign level, scry & die becomes a game-killing tactic. Hitting another group buffed when they're not buffed is an obscene advantage, especially now that most buff spells have shorter durations (when people could maintain buffs more or less all the time, this was less of an issue). Adding possible surprise on that compounds the issue. What this results in is nearly all parties on both sides basically going turtle, which in most cases isn't very fun.
In any world where teleporting is possible, you can expect that people whould have come up with ways of dealing with it.
If you want to prevent Scry and Fry, your world whould have defenses against it including, but not limited to.
- Contingency Plans. Watch any movie where someone attempts to assinate the president. The Secret service have multiple contingency plans in place for getting the precident to safety no matter what. In a fantasy world, you can bet money that any group of bodyguards worthy of the name would have a plan for dealing with an assalt via teleport. This plan could be anything from (die vialiant while our noble lord slips out the secret door) to the King activate a pendant that teleports him to a secure bunker and teleporting into the bunker triggers an antimagic shell to go up.
- Teleport effecting enchanements, these can range from basic(hallow/unhallow with a dimensional anchor spell attached) to elaborate teleport redirectsIE anyone teleporting into the forbidden area is redirected to prison cell and that triggers the casting of an antimagicfield) I remember one of the FR novels talked about the defenses against teleportation Blaskstaff had on his tower. Anyone teleporting into the tower without a key amulet was in for a really bad time.
- Scrying defenses. Antimagic shells, non-detection spells, lairs constructed of lead and thick stone, etc.
- Traps. Anyone who enters an area without whispering the codeword gets hit with spells like hold person. These traps should be designed to go off, no matter how you enter the area. the best of these is a trap that hits everyone in the area with a very high level greater dispem magic.
All that being said, if you manage to catch your target away from their usual defenses, then those are the times where scry and fry pays off.
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A couple possible defences against scry and fry:
- every room the VIP use in several mansions around the country is identical and he move very often, possibly while having several impersonators (or even simulacrums) going around to the country and using the others rooms. The attacker could scry him but would not know what house is in. That will foil teleport (again the "you must know your target location" part).
- a ring of hightened misdirection and a simulacrum as the target of the spell. Always keep a strong guard ready to pounce on the people trying to assassinate the simulacrum.
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