I like your thinking.
But remember that you can only have one AoO per round, though Combat Reflexes permits more.
1) Make a combat maneuver check at normal CMB, the +2 bonus applies only to the attack made after the move.
2) Yes, disarm can be made instead of an attack. The Barbarian takes -4 to his CMD for raging and charging.
3) As with disarm, trip can be made in place of any one attack, e.g. as an attack of opportunity, and yes, this would provoke another attack of opportunity.
4) I would say the fighter can abort the charge, but the rules are silent
5) Sunder can be made in place of any melee attack, so it is possible to use it on a charge, the +2 bonus applies as it would to any other attack made after the move. The ranger can only make an attack of opportunity if he is armed with a melee weapon. Improved Unarmed Strike would enable him to make an attack of opportunity.
|
I have a scenario in mind trying to figure out how exactly combat maneuvers interact with actual play, and would like the community's help in determining how to adjudicate this scenario:
1. Barbarian, rages, then charges at the Ranger in the rear of the party. As part of the charge, he chooses to Overrun the Fighter. Does he make this roll at CMB, or CMB + 2 (for the charge bonus).
2. Assume the Barbarian does not have Improved Overrun. Can the fighter make a Disarm attempt for his AoO? Is the Barb's CMD regular, -2 for raging ac penalty, or -4 for the rage and charge penalty?
3. Assume the Fighter does not have Improved Disarm. Does his AoO Disarm attempt give the Barb an AoO? If the Barb attempts a Trip for his AoO and does not have the feat, does this result in another AoO for the Fighter if the Fighter has combat reflexes?
4. If the Fighter is successful in his Disarm, can the Barb halt his charge? Or is he committed to completing it weaponless? Does he have to complete the Overrun?
5. Assume the Barb Overruns the Fighter unmolested. Can he Sunder the Ranger's bow at the end of the charge? Is it made at CMB, or CMB + 2 for charge bonus? Assuming no Improved Sunder, does the Ranger need Improved Unarmed strike to take an AoO here, or is he totally helpless?
Thank you for your help. I'm hoping to showcase the new maneuver rules for my group's first session with Pathfinder, but it would be nice to understand them first!
The Ranger may not use an unarmed attack without the Feat Improved unarmed attack or some other ability which allows the Ranger to be considered armed when using an unarmed attack(such as having a natural weapon or being a monk). An unarmed attack does not threaten a square and an attack of opportunity can not be provoked if the square is not threatened.
Warning: The following contains a house rule which may or may not be supported by RAW.
Also, the ranger must have an available melee attack (such as wielding a short sword) when the Barbarian provokes the AoP. If the ranger is using both hands to fire arrows from a bow (i.e. the Ranger used his/her bow during his/her previous turn) <bold>I rule</bold> the Ranger has no available melee attack even if the Ranger is considered armed with unarmed attacks. I feel like this is the appropriate interpretation, but I am not sure if the RAW supports my ruling.
Edit: I was incorrect in my assumption Combat Maneuvers could not be made on an AoP. I assumed they could not because the AoP section specifically states a "melee attack", but the Combat Maneuver section states that some Maneuvers can be made as part of an AoP in place of the melee attack. Specific rule > general rule.
A good portion of the sequence of events presented is not possible. An attack of opportunity is specifically a melee attack. Normally you cannot make combat maneuvers as attacks of opportunity. You may however, have some special benefit(feat, special quality, spell, or whatever) that grants you the ability to use a maneuver on a successful melee attack in which case you may use a maneuver on an AoO if the hit is successful.
Not true. Several combat maneuvers, for example disarm or trip, specify explicitly that they can be taken in place of a melee attack. As you say, an attack of opportunity is a melee attack. It follows then that these maneuvers can be made as an attack of opportunity.
|
|
A good portion of the sequence of events presented is not possible. An attack of opportunity is specifically a melee attack. Normally you cannot make combat maneuvers as attacks of opportunity. You may however, have some special benefit(feat, special quality, spell, or whatever) that grants you the ability to use a maneuver on a successful melee attack in which case you may use a maneuver on an AoO if the hit is successful.Not true. Several combat maneuvers, for example disarm or trip, specify explicitly that they can be taken in place of a melee attack. As you say, an attack of opportunity is a melee attack. It follows then that these maneuvers can be made as an attack of opportunity.
Just edited my post. Guess I should know by now to always check the specific rule just in case.
|
I have a scenario in mind trying to figure out how exactly combat maneuvers interact with actual play, and would like the community's help in determining how to adjudicate this scenario:
1. Barbarian, rages, then charges at the Ranger in the rear of the party. As part of the charge, he chooses to Overrun the Fighter. Does he make this roll at CMB, or CMB + 2 (for the charge bonus).
2. Assume the Barbarian does not have Improved Overrun. Can the fighter make a Disarm attempt for his AoO? Is the Barb's CMD regular, -2 for raging ac penalty, or -4 for the rage and charge penalty?
3. Assume the Fighter does not have Improved Disarm. Does his AoO Disarm attempt give the Barb an AoO? If the Barb attempts a Trip for his AoO and does not have the feat, does this result in another AoO for the Fighter if the Fighter has combat reflexes?
4. If the Fighter is successful in his Disarm, can the Barb halt his charge? Or is he committed to completing it weaponless? Does he have to complete the Overrun?
5. Assume the Barb Overruns the Fighter unmolested. Can he Sunder the Ranger's bow at the end of the charge? Is it made at CMB, or CMB + 2 for charge bonus? Assuming no Improved Sunder, does the Ranger need Improved Unarmed strike to take an AoO here, or is he totally helpless?
Thank you for your help. I'm hoping to showcase the new maneuver rules for my group's first session with Pathfinder, but it would be nice to understand them first!
1) Considering that you add the +2 to bull rush during a charge, I can see adding the +2 to an overrun.
2) The barb's CMD would be at a -4 (due to rage and the charge)
3) yes, if the improved feats are not there, then they provoke AoO's. If the Provokee either has not taken an AoO yet, or has Combat reflexes, then they can take it.
4) Since the barb would no longer threaten, they could chose to stop the charge, or continue (up to them). Note, if they stop, they have still used up their full round action for that turn.
5) CMB +2 (for the charge). If the ranger has some other weapon (aka armor spikes, etc) improved unarmed strike, or some feat which allows them to take AoO's with a bow (zen archer I think can), then they can take the AoO, otherwise, they are out of luck.
|
|
1. Barbarian, rages, then charges at the Ranger in the rear of the party. As part of the charge, he chooses to Overrun the Fighter. Does he make this roll at CMB, or CMB + 2 (for the charge bonus).
CMB + 2
2. Assume the Barbarian does not have Improved Overrun. Can the fighter make a Disarm attempt for his AoO? Is the Barb's CMD regular, -2 for raging ac penalty, or -4 for the rage and charge penalty?
Disarm, yes.
CMD -4, charge and raging3. Assume the Fighter does not have Improved Disarm. Does his AoO Disarm attempt give the Barb an AoO? If the Barb attempts a Trip for his AoO and does not have the feat, does this result in another AoO for the Fighter if the Fighter has combat reflexes?
Yes.
Yes. Once per provocation, but you can get multiple different provokes during a short time period, like this.4. If the Fighter is successful in his Disarm, can the Barb halt his charge? Or is he committed to completing it weaponless? Does he have to complete the Overrun?
Yes. No. He can abort it, if he so desires.
Note that whether the Barbarian has any ability to do somethign else depends on how far he traveled on the charge already. If he has already moved more than his normal movement rate, he has just done a double move. Otherwise, he could do something like pick up his dropped weapon.
5. Assume the Barb Overruns the Fighter unmolested. Can he Sunder the Ranger's bow at the end of the charge? Is it made at CMB, or CMB + 2 for charge bonus? Assuming no Improved Sunder, does the Ranger need Improved Unarmed strike to take an AoO here, or is he totally helpless?
No, Sunder is not usable during a charge. Sunder requires being used as a standard action on its own, it is not one of the Combat Maneuvers that can replace a normal attack.
So, if he does a legal COmbat Maneuver, like Trip or Disarm, it would be at CMB + 2.
Depending on the Ranger's feat tree or equipment, he might be able to take an AoO if the Barbarian's CM provokes. Snap Shot would let the Ranger fire as an AoO. Improved Unarmed Strike would let the Ranger make an AoO, including another Combat Maneuver. Armor Spikes would allow the Ranger to make an AoO.
Note: On the "Greater" combat maneuver feats, they can get a bit.... involved... to deal with and adjudicate.
Greater Trip causes the tripped to provoke.
Greater Disarm causes the disarmed weapon to get thrown 15' in a random direction.
Etc.
I have a scenario in mind trying to figure out how exactly combat maneuvers interact with actual play, and would like the community's help in determining how to adjudicate this scenario:
1. Barbarian, rages, then charges at the Ranger in the rear of the party. As part of the charge, he chooses to Overrun the Fighter. Does he make this roll at CMB, or CMB + 2 (for the charge bonus).
The only way you can accomplish this is with the Charge Through feat. Otherwise you can only overrun the fighter. If you succeed, you can continue moving - but will be unable to attack the ranger because you already spent your attack on the fighter during the overrun.
You are overrunning as part of a charge on the fighter, not the ranger. And as such, you do get a +2 to CMB for the charge.
2. Assume the Barbarian does not have Improved Overrun. Can the fighter make a Disarm attempt for his AoO? Is the Barb's CMD regular, -2 for raging ac penalty, or -4 for the rage and charge penalty?
Yes. The fighter can perform a single melee attack or maneuver which replaces a single melee attack. These are limited to Disarm, Sunder and Trip. The Barbarian would be taking a -4 to CMD because of the charge and the rage.
If the Barbarian does not have improved overrun, the fighter can choose to simply let the Barbarian pass. In which case the fighter can still get an AOO, and the Barbarian cannot attack the Ranger because he still spent his attack on the overrun attempt.
3. Assume the Fighter does not have Improved Disarm. Does his AoO Disarm attempt give the Barb an AoO? If the Barb attempts a Trip for his AoO and does not have the feat, does this result in another AoO for the Fighter if the Fighter has combat reflexes?
Yes. AOO's stack so long as you have enough AOO's to play. Without the Combat Reflexes feat, this will end with a single AOO.
4. If the Fighter is successful in his Disarm, can the Barb halt his charge? Or is he committed to completing it weaponless? Does he have to complete the Overrun?
The barbarian has already committed to an overrun attempt. Since overrun does not require a weapon, the attempt will continue.
5. Assume the Barb Overruns the Fighter unmolested. Can he Sunder the Ranger's bow at the end of the charge? Is it made at CMB, or CMB + 2 for charge bonus? Assuming no Improved Sunder, does the Ranger need Improved Unarmed strike to take an AoO here, or is he totally helpless?
This is only possible if the barbarian has the Charge Through feat. Otherwise he has already spent his attack for the round on the overrun attempt on the fighter.
The Ranger's AOO would happen before the Barbarian's strike.
Thank you for your help. I'm hoping to showcase the new maneuver rules for my group's first session with Pathfinder, but it would be nice to understand them first!
You have a pretty good grasp on them, except for the overrun as a part of a charge. The only target you can overrun as a charge is the target of the charge. Unless you have the Charge Through feat, in which case you can overrun a target between you and the target of your charge.