|
| 13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
came up in the familiars thread, earth elementals have tremorsense.
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
people act like tremorsense works just like blindsense. though tremorsense doesn't say anything about concealment, nor does it reference blindsense in the Universal Monster Rules glossary.
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
so... does Tremorsense ignore concealment?
automatically pinpointing anything in contact with the ground would mean knowing with 100% certainty "your feet are here", and allow pretty unerring strikes at your feet/legs.I kind of picture Tremorsense as working like Toft's special earth connection from Avatar: The Last Airbender cartoons (say M Knights name and i will GUT you)
I picture toft's abiliy too. Effectively I think tremor sense allows you to "see" everything within range that is in contact with the ground. Concealment doesnt apply, though cover does.
edit: cover would only apply for ranged attacks and what not. If you're earth gliding under a person you could easily reach out and touch their foot. It's not as much of an issue as people make it since earth elementals are slow and don't have their own touch attacks. To attack in earnest (non-touch) they would have to completely emerge to hit anywhere vital. At best a sor/wiz would get one touch spell off with the elemental as the "toucher."
Frankly an air elementals speed and flyby attack are SO much better for using them as a "toucher."
yeah, but that kind of sense accuracy and being able to pass through earth, would allow an elemental familiar, at least on rough dirt areas, to deliver a touch spell to the creature by standing beneath it and unerringly touching the sole of the creature's foot.
Correct, but given their speed and the fact that they don't have a touch attack of their own it's not really that impressive. See my above comments.
beneath it and unerringly touching the sole of the creature's foot.
nope, he still has a 50% miss chance. He would need tremmorsight or blindSIGHT to attack uneringly. Its like a worm from tremmors: it can tell that there's SOMETHING in the square but not exactly "see" it.
beneath it and unerringly touching the sole of the creature's foot.
nope, he still has a 50% miss chance. He would need tremmorsight or blindSIGHT to attack uneringly. Its like a worm from tremmors: it can tell that there's SOMETHING in the square but not exactly "see" it.
I diaagree
I was in that thread. When I was comparing tremorsense to blindsense I was saying the 50% miss chance is there for the purpose of attack rolls if you can't see the opponent.
You can't reach through cover. Nothing allows you to do that, and while you are swimming undergroud you are still underground.
TCG you should state what you agree with and provide text to support your claim.
In any event the tremorsense/blindsense/blindsight work just like they did in 3.5 so the below is releveant
Special Qualities and Feats Against Unseen FoesCreatures with the scent ability can sniff out unseen creatures, as noted in the scent description in the Monster Manual glossary. The blindsense ability reveals unseen things' locations only. Tremorsense reveals unseen creatures' locations, provided that they are in contact with the ground.
The blindsight ability effectively negates invisibility. (The user can deal with unseen things just as though they were visible.)
Note that only one of these ignores concealment. The others only give the location.
The earth element still can't attack through the ground so it does not matter. I will ask this question again though. If the elemental could stay submerged and attack freely then why would it ever come to the surface?
|
|
i disagree too. tremorsense allows you to 100% know where the creature is when its in contact with the ground. you wouldn't need any more sense to reach up through the earth and touch its sole which is in contact with the ground. no 50% miss chance. the tremorsense ability does not ever mention miss chance in its description.
|
|
Special Qualities and Feats Against Unseen FoesCreatures with the scent ability can sniff out unseen creatures, as noted in the scent description in the Monster Manual glossary. The blindsense ability reveals unseen things' locations only. Tremorsense reveals unseen creatures' locations, provided that they are in contact with the ground.
The blindsight ability effectively negates invisibility. (The user can deal with unseen things just as though they were visible.)
Note that only one of these ignores concealment. The others only give the location.
The earth element still can't attack through the ground so it does not matter. I will ask this question again though. If the elemental could stay submerged and attack freely then why would it ever come to the surface?
But thats not what tremorsense states in the glossary.
an elemental can glide through the earth. it can see anything touching the earth. if it had a touch attack, or even if it just wanted to punch your foot, it could do it from underneath you, without provoking for moving unless you could see under-ground as well as strike under-ground freely.
Tremmor SENSE allows you to pinpoint a creature. Pinpointing does not negate the miss chance, see blindsense and blindsight
|
|
i have seen them.
blindsense makes a specific call out that creatures still have cover and that you only pick out their location. tremorsense has no such call out, nor any reference back to blindsense.
blindsight makes note that concealment is irrelevant as long as there's line of sight to the creature.
lifesense makes a specific call back to blindsight for its ability.
so you cannot use the "sense" in the name of the ability to pre-suppose how it interacts with invisiblity or cover. Just because its called tremorsense does not make it intrinsically the same as blindsense, any more than lifesense does. they're different abilities with different parameters.
Special Qualities and Feats Against Unseen FoesCreatures with the scent ability can sniff out unseen creatures, as noted in the scent description in the Monster Manual glossary. The blindsense ability reveals unseen things' locations only. Tremorsense reveals unseen creatures' locations, provided that they are in contact with the ground.
The blindsight ability effectively negates invisibility. (The user can deal with unseen things just as though they were visible.)
Note that only one of these ignores concealment. The others only give the location.
The earth element still can't attack through the ground so it does not matter. I will ask this question again though. If the elemental could stay submerged and attack freely then why would it ever come to the surface?
But thats not what tremorsense states in the glossary.
an elemental can glide through the earth. it can see anything touching the earth. if it had a touch attack, or even if it just wanted to punch your foot, it could do it from underneath you, without provoking for moving unless you could see under-ground as well as strike under-ground freely.
Rules of the game were articles written by developers to clarify rules, kind of like our FAQ.
Tremorsense does not say it allows you to reach through the earth. It is techincially a variation of blindsense. It allows you to find the 5 foot square a creature is in just like blindsense does.
The advantage is that I dont think being behind a wall would help you, like it would with blindsense. The disadvantage is that if someone leave the ground the ability can not detect them.
Since PF and 3.5 have the same basic rules and they have too for backwards compatibility, and the PF guys also worked on 3.5 the rules must be the same unless otherwise state.
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Tremorsense
A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water.If no straight path exists through the ground from the creature to those that it’s sensing, then the range defines the maximum distance of the shortest indirect path. It must itself be in contact with the ground, and the creatures must be moving.
As long as the other creatures are taking physical actions, including casting spells with somatic components, they’re considered moving; they don’t have to move from place to place for a creature with tremorsense to detect them.
Note that in both versions the wording is similar, and no upgrade was given in pathfinder.
Before you try to focus on the word pin point.
blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Notice that blindsense and tremorsense use the same word(pinpoint) so that is no indication of ignoring miss chance.
Now lets move on to blindsight
blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature.
Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
Notice all the extra stuff you get that tremorsense and blindsense don't give out, and it matches the article I put in my last post also.
i have seen them.
blindsense makes a specific call out that creatures still have cover and that you only pick out their location. tremorsense has no such call out, nor any reference back to blindsense.
blindsight makes note that concealment is irrelevant as long as there's line of sight to the creature.
lifesense makes a specific call back to blindsight for its ability.
so you cannot use the "sense" in the name of the ability to pre-suppose how it interacts with invisiblity or cover. Just because its called tremorsense does not make it intrinsically the same as blindsense, any more than lifesense does. they're different abilities with different parameters.
I said nothing about using the word "sense." Blindsight says it ignores concealment, while the others don't. They are pretty similar, and the designers disagree with you, and when they made pathfinder they did nothing to make any changes to tremorsense to indicate that it was made better.
|
|
i won't take inaction by designers as the crux of an argument. i've gotten SKR to facepalm because of obscure rules in D&D that they hadn't even realized carried over to pathfinder.
Just because it didn't receive an upgrade in text, doesn't mean they thought it was clear enough. it means they just copy/pasted the rules.
Rulings from previous editions are fine for certain interpretations, but they leave the current edition as a standalone ruleset lacking.
and BNW was the one emphasizing SENSE as the link between rules interpretation of blindsense and tremorsense. wasn't aiming that comment at you Wraith.
|
|
Bob's an earth elemental. he lives on the plane of earth. in his chunk of earth, he moves breezily to the central offices everyday, gliding through the earth. He waves to Marge and the little elementals by the school on his way home or to the market. all without popping his head above the ground.
He's a creature that lives in the earth. he's got tremorsense. and that sense is enough for him to get around, and live his entire elemental existence underground. if that sense is not detailed enough to know where a creature is, and identify characteristics of creatures, then the sense is not defined well enough as written.
Plane of EarthThe Plane of Earth is a solid place made of soil and stone. An unwary traveler might find himself entombed within this vast solidity of material and crushed into nothingness, with his powdered remains left as a warning to any foolish enough to follow. Despite its solid, unyielding nature, the Plane of Earth is varied in its consistency, ranging from soft soil to veins of heavier and more valuable metal.
i won't take inaction by designers as the crux of an argument. i've gotten SKR to facepalm because of obscure rules in D&D that they hadn't even realized carried over to pathfinder.
Just because it didn't receive an upgrade in text, doesn't mean they thought it was clear enough. it means they just copy/pasted the rules.
Rulings from previous editions are fine for certain interpretations, but they leave the current edition as a standalone ruleset lacking.
By the rules as they stand that is how it works though until they change it, and those facepalms were normally on obscure things. These abilities are pretty basic knowledge and are not obscure, and they would have changed them if they wanted to.
Actually since the game is backwards compatible they have to work the same in order for things to work with 3.5. therefore the current rules can't really stand alone. 3.5 and pathfinder have the same basic rule set for the most part, therefore, any rule that is in 3.5 is also in PF barring a specific change. I have yet to see any specific change in tremorsense that gives it an upgrade.
|
|
its a compatable ruleset in that you could use pathfinder characters to play in a 3.5 game, or 3.5 characters to play in a pathfinder game. they're not completly backwards compatable. there's no "inheritance" in the rules. the rules set is defined by the books paizo has published for pathfinder.
compatability is a marketing issue to allow pathfinder gms the leeway of running 3.5 adventures with pathfinder characters and getting more playability and re-use from pre-existing products that customers might already own.
Bob's an earth elemental. he lives on the plane of earth. in his chunk of earth, he moves breezily to the central offices everyday, gliding through the earth. He waves to Marge and the little elementals by the school on his way home or to the market. all without popping his head above the ground.
He's a creature that lives in the earth. he's got tremorsense. and that sense is enough for him to get around, and live his entire elemental existence underground. if that sense is not detailed enough to know where a creature is, and identify characteristics of creatures, then the sense is not defined well enough as written.
Plane of EarthThe Plane of Earth is a solid place made of soil and stone. An unwary traveler might find himself entombed within this vast solidity of material and crushed into nothingness, with his powdered remains left as a warning to any foolish enough to follow. Despite its solid, unyielding nature, the Plane of Earth is varied in its consistency, ranging from soft soil to veins of heavier and more valuable metal.
That is all nice and dandy, but until you have something that says earth elementals can attack from beneath the ground or they can ignore cover provided by the ground they can't do it.
Once again I will also ask why would an earth elemental leave the earth to fight if it can do so safely without ever exposing itself?They can travel below the earth. That does not mean they can attack things on the surface without showing themselves, and if he is under someone's foot he can't really surface since he can't share that creature's space by the rules. I am shown you the rules, and designer input.
You have shown me fluff, and opinions. If this were a court of law my side would most likely win the case.
I am not being snarky, but this is a rules discussion. If you are going to say _____ can happen you need to bring a supporting rule.
I will FAQ it though. I do think the special sense abilities need to be more clear.
its a compatable ruleset in that you could use pathfinder characters to play in a 3.5 game, or 3.5 characters to play in a pathfinder game. they're not completly backwards compatable. there's no "inheritance" in the rules. the rules set is defined by the books paizo has published for pathfinder.
compatability is a marketing issue to allow pathfinder gms the leeway of running 3.5 adventures with pathfinder characters and getting more playability and re-use from pre-existing products that customers might already own.
They are not 100% backwards compatible or it would still be 3.5, but for the rules to work without giving a GM a headache they have to be the same for the most part.
If a rule has the same basic wording in 3.5 without anything to imply more or less power then the rule works the same.
That is all nice and dandy, but until you have something that says earth elementals can attack from beneath the ground or they can ignore cover provided by the ground they can't do it.
Once again I will also ask why would an earth elemental leave the earth to fight if it can do so safely without every exposing itself?They can travel below the earth. That does not mean they can attack things on the surface without showing themselves, and if he is under someone's foot he can't really surface since he can't share that creature's space by the rules. I am shown you the rules, and designer input.
You have shown me fluff, and opinions. If this were a court of law my side would most likely win the case.
I am not being snarky, but this is a rules discussion. If you are going to say _____ can happen you need to bring a supporting rule.I will FAQ it though. I do think the special sense abilities need to be more clear.
Really? I mean really?! If Paizo were to cover every little tiny possible detail the corebook would take up more space than the library of congress. Do you seriously need it to say "earth elemental can attack while in the ground" or can just a tiny fragment of independant semi-logical thought be brought to bear?
My irritation is not directed specifically at you, Wraith, but I've seen this argument in other threads today and it's geting increaasingly annoying.
The solution is going to be Rule 0. Ask your dm. That's how it works.
That is all nice and dandy, but until you have something that says earth elementals can attack from beneath the ground or they can ignore cover provided by the ground they can't do it.
Once again I will also ask why would an earth elemental leave the earth to fight if it can do so safely without every exposing itself?They can travel below the earth. That does not mean they can attack things on the surface without showing themselves, and if he is under someone's foot he can't really surface since he can't share that creature's space by the rules. I am shown you the rules, and designer input.
You have shown me fluff, and opinions. If this were a court of law my side would most likely win the case.
I am not being snarky, but this is a rules discussion. If you are going to say _____ can happen you need to bring a supporting rule.I will FAQ it though. I do think the special sense abilities need to be more clear.
Really? I mean really?! If Paizo were to cover every little tiny possible detail the corebook would take up more space than the library of congress. Do you seriously need it to say "earth elemental can attack while in the ground" or can just a tiny fragment of independant semi-logical thought be brought to bear?
My irritation is not directed specifically at you, Wraith, but I've seen this argument in other threads today and it's geting increaasingly annoying.
The solution is going to be Rule 0. Ask your dm. That's how it works.
Yes really. Ignoring cover is not a small thing. If there is no specific rule rule that says you can break a general rule then you can't do it. There is no rule saying the earth elemental can break the rule of bypassing cover.
Tremorsense has not been updated or changed.I don't think adding a sentence to either of these would have make the book go over the page count.
Rule 0 is not how it works. Rule 0 is how it can work if the GM wants to change things.
That bolded area is the crux of my argument. If you want to break any rule you need special ability or feat.
An example is combat reflexes that allows you to make more than one AoO.
I do have to go now. I will see if anyone weighs in on this tonight.
|
|
ruleswise earthglide and earth mastery don't prohibit the elemental from attacking a creature in the square above it.
a 50% miss chance would only apply if you interpret tremorsense as not ignoring concealment. if it can tell where you are, your body mass, and movements by tremors and vibrations, then the earth that its moving through would not provide you with cover from the earth elemental.
Just as if you were an elf wizard flying 5 ft in the air, and an orc with improved invisibility came wandering around and wanted to attack you from below. its hidden from you. it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. it doesn't need to move into your square to attack you, it just needs to be able to reach you. whats needed is a rule to compare attacking through the surface of one thing, to the other.
I would compare it to attacking through the surface of water from the pov of the elemental's enemy.
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
a human walking on the earth surface would be above the surface of the water. since the earth is more substantial and not as transparent as water though I'd want to say that earth acts as something better than improved cover. an elemental "swimming, floating, or treading [earth] on the surface, or wading in [earth] at least chest deep" would have improved cover from opponents on land.
earth glide allows them to move through earth
so earth would not act as cover for the elemental attacking a creature above the surface of the ground.
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
since the earth elemental can see its prey with tremorsense, its perfectly vaid to attack it from below, where it would at least get improved cover, and have no chance of being struck back.
Why don't earth elementals attack from below ground all the time? metal dungeon structures, human pov thinking when creating modules and encounters, rather than immersive thinking into how an intelligent animated elemental force would attack given its capabilities.
Even if you interpret tremorsense as granting concealment, thats only a 50% miss chance, while you have improved cover vs. your oponent, who can't take attacks of opportunity as it gets surrounded.
Would a cleric walking on the surface of a body of water like to suddenly be surrounded by water elementals lurking below the surface of the water? no. would the elementals take advantage of their greater senses in the environment to a tactical advantage? yes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
**hits intercom** Karen, can you get fhe library of congress on the phone please. We're going to need the space. Thank you. *disconnect intercom*
**intercom** They're on line 4, Sir.
Thank you, Karen. **disconnect intercom**
|
|
if there is no specific rule that says you can break a general rule then you can't do it
cover is relative.
you were to attempt to use a wall for cover vs. a dire wraith ( some undead creature with life sense and incorporeal abilities ), it could detect you on the other side of the wall, and unerringly strike at you , as though the wall were not there.i'm saying that the description for tremorsense is not enough. if a sentence could be added to say that it otherwise works like blindsense, then that would clear it up. without that there, its open to interpretation.
being that an earth elemental spends its entire existence underground before being summoned to the prime material to attack something because a wizard or cleric wants it to be there, its sensory capability should be sufficient to live and navigate underground.
Bats use a combination of blindsense and normal sight to navigate pitch black caves. Earth elementals should be the same if not better, being supernatural creatures and intelligent.
That is all nice and dandy, but until you have something that says earth elementals can attack from beneath the ground or they can ignore cover provided by the ground they can't do it.
Once again I will also ask why would an earth elemental leave the earth to fight if it can do so safely without ever exposing itself?They can travel below the earth. That does not mean they can attack things on the surface without showing themselves, and if he is under someone's foot he can't really surface since he can't share that creature's space by the rules. I am shown you the rules, and designer input.
You have shown me fluff, and opinions. If this were a court of law my side would most likely win the case.
I am not being snarky, but this is a rules discussion. If you are going to say _____ can happen you need to bring a supporting rule.I will FAQ it though. I do think the special sense abilities need to be more clear.
Glad you FAQd this. :)
I lean towards the ignoring concealment camp, but personally think either side could be correct about tremorsense and concealment. However, if tremorsense works identical to blindsense why would this verbage
not be included in tremorsense's description?
Tremorsense also says nothing about allowing attacks through solid material or otherwise circumventing cover rules. RAI for earth/stone glide, however, seem to indicate allowing melee attacks against adjacent targets either in the earth or aboveground. They can pass through the material, "as easily as a fish swims through water." If a creature with earth or stone glide cannot do this, the Plane of Earth must be an extremely peaceful place with the elementals, shaitans and xorn unable to hurt each other.
Once again I will also ask why would an earth elemental leave the earth to fight if it can do so safely without ever exposing itself?
An earth elemental never leaves the earth in its natural habitat. I would expect it is much more comfortable and prefers to never leave the earth to attack.
An earth elemental never leaves the earth in its natural habitat. I would expect it is much more comfortable and prefers to never leave the earth to attack.
I was asking why do GM's ever have them leave from underneath the ground if they can attack safely from beneath an opponent without getting hit back.
Seraphim there is no rule saying elementals can punch through earth to hit someone on the other side. They only get to travel through it. The two are not synonymous.
I do have a pathfinder representive on the issue of tremorsense.
Scent, Tremorsense, and Blindsense only say what square the creature is in. Mirror image does not make anyone appear to be in more than their normal space.Blindsight works, because it isn't fooled by visual illusions.
True Sight works because it pierces illusions.
That's about it.
There is a guy who works and plays with the rule makers. I am sure this has come up in their games.
cover is not relative, and incorporeal monster specifically say they can attack through solid objects if they are adjacent. Earth elementals don't.
I will try this again if the rules don't allow you to break a rule, like the incorporeal creatures then you can't.
As for the tremorsense arguement. It never says you get to ignore concealment, and I have developer input from 3.5, with no change to the ability in Pathfinder, and I have a Pathfinder offical. In any event both of these should be FAQ'd. I don't think the earth element issue needs an FAQ since there is no hint that it can do what some are stating it can.
|
|
it allows them to pass through earth. what part about a slam attack coming from the ground is NOT passing through earth?? what you're saying is ridiculous.
there doesn't need to be a rule saying that elementals can punch through the ground to hit someone standing on top.
1. they know the square he's in
2. they can pass through earth
ergo they can slam through the earth and attack a creature in that square.
And i don't know where you got the quotes, so i don't know if /how they might be taken out context.
|
|
quote from the paizo.com universal monster rules on incorporeal creatures:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
thats just any incorporeal creature. dread wraiths have life sense. not all inorporeal creatures have life sense. if you have life sense, then you don't need to use your undead eyes to see a creature, and the enemy adjacent to you outside, wouldn't have total concealment from you.
Since I interpret tremorsense to be able to determine the position of someone when they're touching the ground and the earth elemental is, as functioning like toft's ability, and functions like sight, an elemental adjacent in a wall would function like an incorporeal creature attacking through the wall. players can ready actions for when it emerges to make its attacks. I've seen mods and encounters written up with tactics similar to this with earth elementals.
we can sit and trade quotes all you want. you have a different interpretation of Tremorsense than I and some other gms do. Its vague in the game and needs clarification. Those diametrically opposed interpretations will lead to other interpretations being read differently. I compare the attack to striking through a surface like water that provides cover, you can't seem to make the connection, i don't fault you for that, i just see you're not very creative with the rules.
all a developer is, is a GM that plays a lot and gets to make up his own rules. we all play the game. Do people value their opinion higher than other players? yes. is it always warranted? no. they're just people, making judgement calls about a game, the same as you and I. Do they have fun playing games? yes, do all developers agree all the time? no. just look at skr and bulman. Some developers have more of a flare for creativity and story, some espouse a firm grasp of rules and concepts that should work, and can express those rules well.
You run a game, and in yours , elementals blindly walk into eachother because they just have tremorsense, and need to come into the air, and use their eyesight to attack foes... because its awful convenient for the puny humans that the elemental needs to step out of the ground to attack it. thats fine. in my games they're more of a refined sense, and as such allows the elemental more leeway.
we can sit and trade quotes all you want. you have a different interpretation of Tremorsense than I and some other gms do. Its vague in the game and needs clarification. Those diametrically opposed interpretations will lead to other interpretations being read differently. I compare the attack to striking through a surface like water that provides cover, you can't seem to make the connection, i don't fault you for that, i just see you're not very creative with the rules.all a developer is, is a GM that plays a lot and gets to make up his own rules. we all play the game. Do people value their opinion higher than other players? yes. is it always warranted? no. they're just people, making judgement calls about a game, the same as you and I. Do they have fun playing games? yes, do all developers agree all the time? no. just look at skr and bulman. Some developers have more of a flare for creativity and story, some espouse a firm grasp of rules and concepts that should work, and can express those rules well.
You run a game, and in yours , elementals blindly walk into eachother because they just have tremorsense, and need to come into the air, and use their eyesight to attack foes... because its awful convenient for the puny humans that the elemental needs to step out of the ground to attack it. thats fine. in my games they're more of a refined sense, and as such allows the elemental more leeway.
A developer makes the rules and decides how they were officially meant to be used in play. Now you can house rule all you want, but remember the point discussion on these boards is to find official intent.
If I make a game my clarification is not an opinion. It is the rule. Now you are free to house rule. It is not like I am going to send the rules police to your house but to pretend like the people who make the game's rule have no merit is just silly.
Don't try to make it sound like I am trying to make you play a certain. I never said you are doing it wrong if you don't do it the official way.
How you do it at your house does not matter for the purpose of the rules forum, and I agree that if they never had to come above ground to attack it would make sense to do so. That is why I asked the question of why would they so many times if they did not have to. The fact that almost no GM plays them that way ...... How do your players defeat them if they don't come up to fight. I am sure there are not too many times they will fight in any other situation.
I am not trying to be creative with the rules. I am trying to discuss how they were meant to work. If you want to discuss creativity with rules there are other subforums such as "advice" or "house rules" that exist.
If the elemental has 15 feet of reach how is hitting the ground going to hurt him? Being in the ground and does not mean you can hit the ground and hurt something 15 feet below it.
In any event it seems you have nothing to back you up expect "I want the rule to work like this...", which is fine, but this is not the forum for it.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
An earth elemental never leaves the earth in its natural habitat. I would expect it is much more comfortable and prefers to never leave the earth to attack.
I was asking why do GM's ever have them leave from underneath the ground if they can attack safely from beneath an opponent without getting hit back.
Easy on the bold. I understand completely what you asked. Perhaps most GM's do not consider an earth elemental capable of attacking from beneath the ground. I'm not even saying they (or you) are wrong. I'm even shifting my opinion on tremorsense and agree with you that it probably doesn't negate concealment. Still deserves to be FAQd.
However, earth/stone glide similarly deserves a FAQ. Let's seriously think about how these creatures function in their native habitat (which is entirely solid). Earth glide states that a creature, "can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water." Cover is provided by a solid barrier; any sort of earth except metal does not seem to be a solid to these creatures. There is a valid RAI argument that earth glide is intended to allow melee attacks through materials other creatures would consider solid. Since there is no clear text explicitly spelling that out in earth glide's description, there is likewise a valid RAI argument that creatures with the power can't attack if they are in a solid space. FAQ-worthy.
the PF guys also worked on 3.5 the rules must be the same unless otherwise state.
Wait, who? I don't remember any of the guys who worked on Core 3.X being Paizo guys now. What am I missing?
|
|
cover and concealment are completely relative ways of increasing armor class or providing a miss chance.
if you have an ability to see through fog, obscuring mist/fog cloud/solid fog do not provide a concealment miss chance for you.
if you have an ability to attack through a object without damaging that object or depleting the force of your attack, then the object by definition doesn't provide cover.
i started the thread for clarification on tremorsense. i haven't gotten it because there's not text in any of the books that expands on it. to back up your interpretation of the rules you had to dig up archives from 3.5. which is fine as reference material. but not everything is the same then, as it is now. so i'd rather not refer to it.
if the rules work the way you think they do, then an elemental on its own home plane cannot attack another elemental. Wroy is right, in that it must be a very peaceful plane of existence after all. The whole plane is solid earth, and all they can do is move around in it.
as for how to defend against huge earth elemental that won't get out of the ground, if the group is on par with the CR of the creature, they'll find a way. if its in a dungeon, then it might not be able to sink into the floor, there could be metal struts or just not enough depth to hold it. if its outside, then the pcs can fly, or target move earth type spells. or ready actions for when it reaches up to attack them, like they can do vs. incorporeal creatures.
i'm not saying developers don't have any clout when answering questions like this, but you're quoting articles over 5 years old, that I only half agreed with at the time. Just because they were working at wotc on 3.5 doesn't mean that there's consistent momentum with the rules intentions. i don't even know if those articles were written by developers that worked on the rules set. they might have just been developers working on some handbooks or sourcebooks. "developer" is a pretty large title. publish a game and you can call yourself a developer. it doesn't have to be a good game.
Wait, who? I don't remember any of the guys who worked on Core 3.X being Paizo guys now. What am I missing?the PF guys also worked on 3.5 the rules must be the same unless otherwise state.
I wrote that badly. They wrote some books for 3.5, therefore they know know tremorsense and its cousins work. If they had wanted to make tremorsense more powerful it would have been done is the main point I am making.
These guys also still game/communicate with the WoTC guys so it is not like the working of the rules is a secret.
cover and concealment are completely relative ways of increasing armor class or providing a miss chance.
if you have an ability to see through fog, obscuring mist/fog cloud/solid fog do not provide a concealment miss chance for you.
if you have an ability to attack through a object without damaging that object or depleting the force of your attack, then the object by definition doesn't provide cover.
i started the thread for clarification on tremorsense. i haven't gotten it because there's not text in any of the books that expands on it. to back up your interpretation of the rules you had to dig up archives from 3.5. which is fine as reference material. but not everything is the same then, as it is now. so i'd rather not refer to it.
if the rules work the way you think they do, then an elemental on its own home plane cannot attack another elemental. Wroy is right, in that it must be a very peaceful plane of existence after all. The whole plane is solid earth, and all they can do is move around in it.
as for how to defend against huge earth elemental that won't get out of the ground, if the group is on par with the CR of the creature, they'll find a way. if its in a dungeon, then it might not be able to sink into the floor, there could be metal struts or just not enough depth to hold it. if its outside, then the pcs can fly, or target move earth type spells. or ready actions for when it reaches up to attack them, like they can do vs. incorporeal creatures.
i'm not saying developers don't have any clout when answering questions like this, but you're quoting articles over 5 years old, that I only half agreed with at the time. Just because they were working at wotc on 3.5 doesn't mean that there's consistent momentum with the rules intentions. i don't even know if those articles were written by developers that worked on the rules set. they might have just been developers working on some handbooks or sourcebooks. "developer" is a pretty large title. publish a game and you can call yourself a...
I understand your point, and no fights in that place makes no sense either, but fluff and rules are not always created together. I think the fluff for the home of the earth elementals needs to be redone.
The age of the article is not an issue. If so when does an article become obsolete. Can I ignore the pathfinder FAQ 3 years from now.Are you saying because the game is now called pathfinder the same rules now have different meaning?
Could they have meant to change tremorsense, sure. I doubt it, but it is possible. The problem is they never changed it, whether they meant to or not, and they have said, during post bashing WoTC, that they will have friends there. I am sure all of this makes it very unlikely something as powerful as upgrading tremorsense to blindsight would be overlooked. I even posted a pathfinder employee who agreed with me.
The WotC reference was written by Skip Williams(their rules guru at the time for 3.5.).
As for your "if the group is on par with the CR of the creature, they'll find a way." I disagree. There are CR 1 and CR 3 earth elementals with earth glide. Flying at the stage of the game is unlikely. Someone will be on the ground getting pounded.
Why would an earth elemental have a lair? Even if it(the liar) was found it would just go deeper into the earth to keeps its advantage.
My question is at what point did this rule change since the PF guys know about it, but did not change the wording to make it better?
I have realized I am not going to convince anyone. That is cool though. Just hit the same FAQ's I hit if you don't mind. Tremorsense is not written all that well, and the fluff for the plane of earth needs to be better thought out also.
|
I'm agreeing with wraithstrike here
1) Tremorsense shouldn't remove concealment, sure you can say that the creature with Tremorsense can pin point exactly where their foes are(locate the square they are in), but that doesn't equate to the creature knowing everything about their foes' anatomy to know exactly how the foe is standing/moving in order to overcome the concealment.
Sensing creatures on the other side of walls? sure, that's pretty damn powerful, but balanced out by the fact that the creature has to be touching the ground to be detected by tremorsense.
2)Using earth glide and tremorsense to provide total cover for yourself and still be able to attack people(with or without the previously talked about total concealment) is just a tad over powered, fluff on the plane of earth aside i think people are over looking balance a little to much here. Yes it'd make sense for things to work that way, but if it did, earth elementals would be the most overpowered thing ever, master summoners could just start pumping out earth elementals every round and destroy anything that isn't flying/incorporeal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2)Using earth glide and tremorsense to provide total cover for yourself and still be able to attack people(with or without the previously talked about total concealment) is just a tad over powered, fluff on the plane of earth aside i think people are over looking balance a little to much here. Yes it'd make sense for things to work that way, but if it did, earth elementals would be the most overpowered thing ever, master summoners could just start pumping out earth elementals every round and destroy anything that isn't flying/incorporeal. ** spoiler omitted **
I don't want to talk in circles and I think the arguments on both sides have been outlined well, but just one clarification I think deserves mentioning - I don't think Seraphimpunk is implying a creature in that situation would be retaining total cover while attacking with impunity. It's early and my coffee is just starting to kick in, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned thinking it should operate similar to the incorporeal creature mechanics in one of his posts. If they attack, they drop from total cover to basic cover and can be struck with readied actions.
|
|
jah.
they would logically have total cover , when "under the surface" in the wall or floor.
elementals already have powerful attacks. an air elemental can pick someone up in a whirlwind by moving through their square, use their phenomenal fly speed to fly up , and then release their captive to let them fall thirty or forty feet or more in addition to the damage sustained by picking them up. ( its been acknowledged as a permissible tactic in a pfs mod )
that's just air elementals using their abilities and environment to their advantage. earth elementals would logically use their abilities to the best of their abilities.
if they captured better, how tremorsense works, it would clarify some things certainly. if tremorsense allows you to pinpoint where a creature is when its in contact with the ground, and you're attacking from below ground, you know exactly where to shove a spikey rocky fist, to wham up someone's leg/foot. thats why i don't think concealment should apply for tremorsense, and why i compare it to the visuals of avatar the last airbender.
concealment makes sense when you don't know where something is: fog, darkness, blindness. blindness is not knowing where someone is within a square at all. you have to grope around to find out where they are in the square. with treorsense you're able to pinpoint where they are as long as they're in contact with the ground. you know where their feet are in most cases. so it should be easy to sweep, attack, and hit the creature and i don't think that justifies a 50% miss chance.
@wraith, i'm saying rules faqs from old systems are just that, faqs for those systems. things have changed in pathfinder, not everything is exactly the same. other threads are debating the unification of all senses into one skill and the ramifications invisibility has on that with the scent ability. a lot of things have changed from 3.5 to pathfinder. enough, i think, that you can either try to pick and choose when a previous edition faq applies to a specific situation, when enough of the situations rules have not changed, or agree to just ignore them. the length of the "things i didn't know changed" about pathfinder thread is huge. 3 years from now if pathfinder isn't pathfinder anymore, then yeah, you probably can ignore their FAQs. would you refer to a FAQ on rogues where they ask if rogues can sneak attack undead and constructs and apply that ruling in pathfinder?
now we just have to wait and hope pathfinder takes notice and updates either its fluff for elementals, or realizes that they need more acute senses and expounds on them, maybe creating a keen tremorsense ability or something ( as there probably are other creatures with tremorsense that are just feeling a few vibrations and guessing where the enemy is based on those. ) there just needs to be a bit of refinement for earth elementals.
I'm agreeing with wraithstrike here
1) Tremorsense shouldn't remove concealment, sure you can say that the creature with Tremorsense can pin point exactly where their foes are(locate the square they are in), but that doesn't equate to the creature knowing everything about their foes' anatomy to know exactly how the foe is standing/moving in order to overcome the concealment.Sensing creatures on the other side of walls? sure, that's pretty damn powerful, but balanced out by the fact that the creature has to be touching the ground to be detected by tremorsense.
2)Using earth glide and tremorsense to provide total cover for yourself and still be able to attack people(with or without the previously talked about total concealment) is just a tad over powered, fluff on the plane of earth aside i think people are over looking balance a little to much here. Yes it'd make sense for things to work that way, but if it did, earth elementals would be the most overpowered thing ever, master summoners could just start pumping out earth elementals every round and destroy anything that isn't flying/incorporeal. ** spoiler omitted **
Why summon anything except elementals? When the party gets access to fly, most NPC's still won't be able to get it like they want to realistically anyway. The party is flying. Cast summon monster ____, and let the elementals get all of the XP for you. Rinse Repeat. You have an annoying BBEG. Summon an earth elemental. Even if it is a CR 1 earth elemental he will never be able to kill it most likely since he can't hit it. It will eventually roll nat 20's.
|
Just to point it out, there is a easy defence for level 1-3 groups: grass.
Sure the earth elemental can sense you moving on the ground and he can pass through earth with ease, but he can't attack through living things, wooden planks or rugs without pushing them away or punching through them. Probably it can be stopped by artificial, inorganic flooring like tiles or cement.
If we look the oracle power Earth glide we see he can be stopped by worked stone and the power is very similar.
In the far past (1st-2nd edition) a elemental summoned were only worked stone was available was weaker than one summoned from earth.
Even tremorsense work if you are in contact with the ground, so walking on a beam or climbing a tree will make the elemental "blind" unless he leave the embrace of the earth protecting him.
I am in favour of the idea that tremorsense give you something equivalent to of blindsense and not blindsight, but the "there is no defence against this kind of attack" argument don't work.
I don't want to talk in circles and I think the arguments on both sides have been outlined well, but just one clarification I think deserves mentioning - I don't think Seraphimpunk is implying a creature in that situation would be retaining total cover while attacking with impunity. It's early and my coffee is just starting to kick in, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned thinking it should operate similar to the incorporeal creature mechanics in one of his posts. If they attack, they drop from total cover to basic cover and can be struck with readied actions.
2)Using earth glide and tremorsense to provide total cover for yourself and still be able to attack people(with or without the previously talked about total concealment) is just a tad over powered, fluff on the plane of earth aside i think people are over looking balance a little to much here. Yes it'd make sense for things to work that way, but if it did, earth elementals would be the most overpowered thing ever, master summoners could just start pumping out earth elementals every round and destroy anything that isn't flying/incorporeal. ** spoiler omitted **
By the rules they do have total cover though. People can't attack through the earth to hit them back. Incorpeal creatures have special rules for attacking them if they are hiding inside the wall. How are you going to attack something hitting the bottom of your shoe?
. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.
So even if earth elemental followed this rule, which it does not it would have to emerge meaning part of it is in your square. The problem is that by the rules two corporeal creatures can not share the same square.
You can't really apply incorporeal rules to corporeal creature though so it seems that for now earth elementals are really powerful using your rules.
@wraith, i'm saying rules faqs from old systems are just that, faqs for those systems. things have changed in pathfinder, not everything is exactly the same. other threads are debating the unification of all senses into one skill and the ramifications invisibility has on that with the scent ability. a lot of things have changed from 3.5 to pathfinder. enough, i think, that you can either try to pick and choose when a previous edition faq applies to a specific situation, when enough of the situations rules have not changed, or agree to just ignore them. the length of the "things i didn't know changed" about pathfinder thread is huge. 3 years from now if pathfinder isn't pathfinder anymore, then yeah, you probably can ignore their FAQs. would you refer to a FAQ on rogues where they ask if rogues can sneak attack undead and constructs and apply that ruling in pathfinder?now we just have to wait and hope pathfinder takes notice and updates either its fluff for elementals, or realizes that they need more acute senses and expounds on them, maybe creating a keen tremorsense ability or something ( as there probably are other creatures with tremorsense that are just feeling a few vibrations and guessing where the enemy is based on those. ) there just needs to be a bit of refinement for earth elementals.
The "things I did not know thread" is due to changes that have clearly been made, but people missed them, myself included.
As to the rogue question if the new system is based off of pathfinder, and is backwards compatible with the expectation that people are supposed to be able to play it without learning a brand new system completely and uses the same wording I would think it works the same way.Now if it is a completely different system such as GURPS then I would take the literal reading of the rules.
Just to point it out, there is a easy defence for level 1-3 groups: grass.
Sure the earth elemental can sense you moving on the ground and he can pass through earth with ease, but he can't attack through living things, wooden planks or rugs without pushing them away or punching through them. Probably it can be stopped by artificial, inorganic flooring like tiles or cement.
If we look the oracle power Earth glide we see he can be stopped by worked stone and the power is very similar.
In the far past (1st-2nd edition) a elemental summoned were only worked stone was available was weaker than one summoned from earth.Even tremorsense work if you are in contact with the ground, so walking on a beam or climbing a tree will make the elemental "blind" unless he leave the embrace of the earth protecting him.
I am in favour of the idea that tremorsense give you something equivalent to of blindsense and not blindsight, but the "there is no defence against this kind of attack" argument don't work.
People don't count grass as cover though. If that were the case it would stop incorporeal being since if they are in the ground below the adventure the grass would be another corporeal object they would need to bypass. Grass is normally considered to be a part of the ground. If there are tables you are probably inside so I would agree since the wooden planks or concrete would not allow an elemental to punch through since it is not earth*. Now if you are outside or in a dungeon that is natural earth you are just screwed.
*For the purpose of this sentence I am using the other interpretation of the rule.
Earth Glide (Su): You can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except worked stone and metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, you can even glide through lava. You glide at your base land speed. While gliding, you breathe stone as if it were air (you do not need to hold your breath). Your burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or sign of your presence. A move earth spell cast on an area where you are flings you back 30 feet, stunning you for 1 round unless you succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save. Activating this ability is a free action. You can glide for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation. You can bring other creatures with you when you glide, but each passenger costs an additional minute per minute of travel.
Where does it say you grass is barrier? For the sake of this question we are assuming the elemental can punch through earth.
I find it funny that my thoughts in that other thread have been expanded from Touch Attacks to slams.
I find it funny that my thoughts in that other thread have been expanded from Touch Attacks to slams.
How can one do a touch attack, but not a slam. The rules really don't care whether it is a touch attack or not.
By the rules either you can ignore cover and concealment or you can't.
How are you going to attack something hitting the bottom of your shoe?
. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.So even if earth elemental followed this rule, which it does not it would have to emerge meaning part of it is in your square. The problem is that by the rules two corporeal creatures can not share the same square.
You can't really apply incorporeal rules to corporeal creature though so it seems that for now earth elementals are really powerful using your rules.
You seem to be taking that sentence from incorporeal out of context of the rest of the description. An incorporeal creature has a 50% miss chance attacking from within a solid because it cannot see its target, thus the target has total concealment. When it moves to a normal square aboveground (i.e., emerges), it can see its target and attack normally (i.e., its target doesn't gain total concealment).
Applying the same rules to an earth/stone gliding creature (per trying to figure the closest thing RAI, since there is no clear RAW) wouldn't violate any space-occupation rules. Either: 1) The earth elemental stays underground, pinpoints an adjacent target with tremorsense and attacks. The elemental has a 50% miss chance due to the target having total concealment. The elemental loses total cover so targets aboveground could attack/target it with readied actions; or 2) The earth elemental emerges from the ground and attacks a target normally.
Thinking an earth elemental familiar could circumvent my suggested rules fix in order to deliver a touch spell for its master without leaving the ground, losing total cover and/or granting its target total concealment (the whole touching the bottom of your shoe thing)... you're losing me on that part. I'm not suggesting that at all. That would be like claiming any caster can make his familiar incorporeal and have it auto-deliver touch spells from within a solid with no roll. (A melee touch attack is still a type of melee attack and would follow all above rules.) If that point is from the previous thread about familiars that spawned/inspired this thread, let's ignore it. Doesn't seem to have any relevance to tremorsense and earth/stone glide needing FAQs.
You seem to be taking that sentence from incorporeal out of context of the rest of the description. An incorporeal creature has a 50% miss chance attacking from within a solid because it cannot see its target, thus the target has total concealment. When it moves to a normal square aboveground (i.e., emerges), it can see its target and attack normally (i.e., its target doesn't gain total concealment).
...but if tremorsense works like blindsight then it never has to emerge in order to ignore the 50% miss chance and therefore never sets itself up to be hit by a readied action.
Just to make sure we are on the same page you are saying
1. elementals can attack through the ground without actually coming up just like incorpoeal creatures can attack from walls.
2. tremorsense works like blindsight and tells you exactly where someone is, not like blindsense which only tells you the square they are in.
If so then they should never have to expose themselves. Other than wraiths incorporeal creature don't have any special senses. That is why they have the 50% miss chance. Your version of tremorsense eliminates that problem.
Thinking an earth elemental familiar could circumvent my suggested rules fix in order to deliver a touch spell for its master without leaving the ground, losing total cover and/or granting its target total concealment... you're losing me on that part. I'm not suggesting that at all. That would be like claiming any caster can make his familiar incorporeal and have it auto-deliver touch spells from within a solid with no roll. (A melee touch attack is still a type of melee attack and would follow all above rules.) If that point is from the previous thread about familiars that spawned/inspired this thread, let's ignore it. Doesn't seem to have any relevance to tremorsense and earth/stone glide needing FAQs.
Rules fix? I though you were agreeing with the other posters. How is your proposal different from theirs?
I am only talking about the earth glide and tremorsense issue right now.If you have a different view on the rules than them then I missed it.
I would like to see your version, either by copy and paste, a link , or reposting.
That way I don't treat your posts and Seraphimpunk's the same, and I know who is saying what.
PS:Making something incorporeal is very hard(as in I can't think of a way to do so right now) to do, and I don't even know if it would be worth the effort to do it for a familiar.
|
|
Where does it say you grass is barrier? For the sake of this question we are assuming the elemental can punch through earth.
Logic.
Grass is vegetation, not earth. Earth glide work through earth.As grass=/=earth earth glide don't work. You don't need any rule for that.
The oracle powers citation was referred to the possibility that earth glide don't work through worked stone.
If people discount grass an obstacle for a creature that can freely pass through earth but not through living things it is their problems as they are short circuiting the rules to make it simple.
If my character is outdoor and a earth elemental is attacking me through the soil, I will move over the root system of a tree. The elemental would have the same problems of a man trying to attack me through a tick bush.
He can even use the same kind of solutions a man can use to attack someone hiding behind a bush: break the root system till he get a free area to move and attack or step outside the earth so that the root system is no more an hindrance.
Same thing for the grass. He can punch a hole through it so he can freely attack or find a bare parch of earth and step outside.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to make sure we are on the same page you are saying
1. elementals can attack through the ground without actually coming up just like incorpoeal creatures can attack from walls.
I'm saying I think that would be a reasonable and elegantly simple fix for a FAQ to earth/stone glide. It's probably what I'll house rule as a combination of RAI for earth glide mixed with using most of incorporeal rules as a compatible game mechanic.
2. tremorsense works like blindsight and tells you exactly where someone is, not like blindsense which only tells you the square they are in.
No, I jumped on your bandwagon a few posts ago: "I'm even shifting my opinion on tremorsense and agree with you that it probably doesn't negate concealment." It's probably like blindsense and scent. I'd be surprised if a FAQ didn't confirm that.
Rules fix? I though you were agreeing with the other posters. How is your proposal different from theirs?
I am only talking about the earth...
Even though I think letting earth glide allow melee attacks could be RAI, there's no rules on how to mechanically do that without grabbing something else. By "rules fix", I was referring to applying the incorporeal rules to the situation because that would essentially be a house rule on my part. Sorry if I used confusing wording.