SInce it requres an attack roll a touch spell/ effect can crit, right?
If so of if not please cite your sources.
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In the core rules, under Combat
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
The eye observes.... *wink*
This is for a PbP, which I am DMing. Basically a question of whether a ghost's corrupting touch ability can be coup de graced or not.
To the best of my understanding: because Corrupting Touch is made with an attack roll (it's a touch attack), you can crit with it per RAW.
Therefore, if a target is helpless, yes, a ghost could use a full action to coup de grace it with Corrupting Touch, doubling its damage. The helpless target would still get its Fortitude save for half damage.
If this is not true, than it's a specific exception regarding monster abilities that I cannot find.
ETA: I do note that the Corrupting Touch ability requires a standard action for the ghost to pass through the target's body. Voice of the Voiceless would have to determine whether that would conflict with the full action required to make a coup de grace (but it could still crit).
Groovy. ;-) Yay! Dead ORC!
The eye observes.... *wink*
This is for a PbP, which I am DMing. Basically a question of whether a ghost's corrupting touch ability can be coup de graced or not.
I don't see anything in the rules that suggests it wouldn't be usable in a coup de grace. Just keep in mind that the touch itself comes with a Fort save to halve damage. And then you'd calculate the save DC vs the coup de grace once you've determined final damage.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Full text is above from the PRD - it states that you can use a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).
Since the touch is a separate supernatural ability (and not a 'weapon') shouldn't that mean that you can't coup it?
** spoiler omitted **
Full text is above from the PRD - it states that you can use a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).
Since the touch is a separate supernatural ability (and not a 'weapon') shouldn't that mean that you can't coup it?
It's a supernatural spell like ability which can crit per the combat section posted above.
PRD wrote:
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Not referring to whether it can crit, more at whether it can be used to 'Coup de Grace' - which the PRD suggests as per RAW can only be from a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).
Not referring to whether it can crit, more at whether it can be used to 'Coup de Grace' - which the PRD suggests as per RAW can only be from a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).
I think you you're splitting hairs. It's a melee attack that does damage. By your logic non-monk unarmed strikes cant crit either. ;-)
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Not referring to whether it can crit, more at whether it can be used to 'Coup de Grace' - which the PRD suggests as per RAW can only be from a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).I think you you're splitting hairs. It's a melee attack that does damage. By your logic non-monk unarmed strikes cant crit either. ;-)
You must not be reading his posts very carefully. He's not even talking about crits, yet you keep acting like he is.
You must not be reading his posts very carefully. He's not even talking about crits, yet you keep acting like he is.Not referring to whether it can crit, more at whether it can be used to 'Coup de Grace' - which the PRD suggests as per RAW can only be from a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).I think you you're splitting hairs. It's a melee attack that does damage. By your logic non-monk unarmed strikes cant crit either. ;-)
I'll rephrase.
I think you're splitting hairs. It's a melee attack that can crit and does damage. By your logic a non-monk unarmed strike cant Coup De Grace either since it is not "a melee weapon."
I don't consider the corrupting touch a 'melee attack', it is more a touch range spell-like ability. You can't use a spell for a Coup de Grace either.
I'd be happy with you auto-hitting with the ability, but not Coup de Grace-ing with it.
Not referring to whether it can crit, more at whether it can be used to 'Coup de Grace' - which the PRD suggests as per RAW can only be from a melee weapon (or bow or crossbow).
Whoops, you're right (I always find one thing and can't find another).
Per RAW, you can crit with a Corrupting Touch, but you cannot deliver a Coup de Grace with one.
I would assume it requires a melee weapon because you're basically slitting somebody's throat ("coup de grace" means "cut of mercy"). Can't do that with an unarmed attack either--but it's a good point to note that.
TinyCoffeeGolem, as a ghost usually has enough of a CR to deal a decent amount of damage even without an auto-crit, I'd take the auto-hit allowance and go with it. This isn't worth a lengthy GM/Player dispute over.
DM call, of cousre. The only logical assumptions I could make would be based on reality and we all know how badly that goes. ;-)
I think you're splitting hairs. It's a melee attack that can crit and does damage. By your logic a non-monk unarmed strike cant Coup De Grace either since it is not "a melee weapon."
Actually, an unarmed strike is defined as a weapon. It's even on the melee weapon table.
That said, if the DM believes there's enough ambiguity in whether or not supernatural touch attacks can be used to coup de grace, he's well-empowered to make that ruling. I don't think it would be seriously game-breaking either way, not any more than playing a ghost PC in the first place (if that is, indeed, what's going on).
Issue resolved and everyone has retired to the tea room for coffee and cake - Huzzah!