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How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?Pretty g!+!$&n frequently. In such a situation, when there is a confrontation, it means that the PCs plans have kinda blown up in their faces.
It is kind of how you try to play when dealing with a powerful enemy.
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So you're saying the wizard takes a pack containing his spellbook (which get bigger and may require multiple volumes as he levels):
in the inn common room for dinner
to the latrine to take a dump
to the brothel for a little fun
on every shopping trip he goes on
to the temple for whatever holy days he observes
to meetings with the local authorities
Yes. Further, I think this is extremely realistic.
Imagine I came to you and gave you a book, and I said to you: as long as you read from this book every morning, you will have amazing and virtually limitless powers of which most can only dream. You will consider the laws of physics to be mere suggestions to be obeyed by lesser mortals. But if you ever lose or misplace this book, this awesome power will be lost as well.
You put this to the test and discover it to be true. Would you ever let that book out of your sight? I wouldn't. I'd give up swimming. If I was invited to something where I couldn't bring the book, I wouldn't go. How much moreso, if you were a person who did dangerous and stupid things for a living and you relied on those powers for your daily survival?
So it is reasonable that a wizard will hold his spellbook while engaging in some fun at a local brothel because it is that valuable, but it is unreasonable to expect them to spend the resources to make at least a rudimentary back up book in case it is lost or destroyed?
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Yeah. Yeah, you don't need to bath with prestigidation (cleans you)
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.
A low level wizard, fine. At low levels just buy another.
A high level wizard mugged? By what? Epic thieves? Other spellcasters? A Lich thief?
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You do realize Heward Handysack is a backpack not a purse. You are thinking of the bag of holding.
Wrong goalposts. Wrong fad.
How often is backpack snatching happen compared to purse snatching?
Hint: Purse are on shoulder/arm, backpacks are more secure (straps).
Actually a haversack can be either, depends on how you want it defined, on something like the Handy Haversack, I'd say it's closer to a backpack, ala this or this, including the clips.
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-Which is why we suggest using a BACKPACK or handy haversack, not a man purse or CarriageTM Bag of holding. If you try to snatch a backpack off of someone you're more likely to haul them with it than to pry them out of it.
A tiny bit of research will show you that a haversack essentially is a man-purse.
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Actually a haversack can be either, depends on how you want it defined, on something like the Handy Haversack, I'd say it's closer to a backpack, ala this or this, including the clips.
Given that one of the advantages is that you can pull something out of it instantly, I'd say the purse-variant seems more likely, since that doesn't involve awkwardly reaching over your shoulder and fumbling around aimlessly.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Yeah. Yeah, you don't need to bath with prestigidation (cleans you)
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.A low level wizard, fine. At low levels just buy another.
A high level wizard mugged? By what? Epic thieves? Other spellcasters? A Lich thief?
I have an idea just have your famiilar sleep on the backpack. Also I have wondered if handy haversacks make good pillows. Or use it as a pillow yourself.
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Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Yeah. Yeah, you don't need to bath with prestigidation (cleans you)
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.A low level wizard, fine. At low levels just buy another.
A high level wizard mugged? By what? Epic thieves? Other spellcasters? A Lich thief?
Someone who wants to steal all of the spells in his book.
In an evil game had a player who wanted to be a lich, and so he needed to learn how to be a lich. So one of the first steps was to steal books from a lich on how to become a lich, including the liches spellbook.
If I am a wizard and you are a wizard, your spellbook would be something I would be interested in acquiring. And if you sneak up on a wizard, they are about the easiest class to mug, considering the low AC, CMD, saves, etc...
Rather than fighting the strawmen scenarios, let’s produce a few realistic ones off the top of my head.
1. You let the players find or even make a unique spell (this occurs in at least one AP I can think of with a spell every high level wizard would want). Or they are just a wizard with lots of spells. Either way BBEG Wizard hears your wizard has a spell in his book that he wants to learn and sends minions for the book so he can learn the spell. Quest ensues.
BBEG has you killed and takes your book. Roll new character
2. Wizard keeps his spellbook in his bag. Local cutpurse lives up to his name and steals bag, not knowing what is inside but figuring it is valuable. Then, realizing what he has tries to fence it to BBEG. Quest ensues.
How is he going to realize what he has? At BEST he MIGHT realize its a spellbook and try to sell it to the local Wizard's collective or something.
3. Party is captured and all items are taken from party, including weapons and spellbook (you may remember this from the opening to one of the APs…)
At what point do they get them back? Never? Wizard, roll a new character
4. Wizard escapes by running away but is forced to leave his equipment behind for one reason or another (perhaps because of a night ambush, perhaps he is turned into a newt…who knows…)
What.
That is off the top of my head, and didn’t include any of the lovely off the wall strawmen that people in the “Don’t take my book camp” keep bringing up.
Seriously? You just listed three of them.
As has been pointed out many, many times, basic spellbooks can be purchased from any magic shop in the same way basic magic weapons can be purchased from any magic shop.
Unless in your Kthulhu's, or any other true role-player's game, where they DON'T sell those things in magic shops because it gives the Wizard "too much power."
And to duck all the strawmen and stay on the topic of what our side has been saying since the beginning
Oh please, not a single one of you knows what the other's argument is. Like how you just contradicted Kthulhu.
But much like a Lich should probably keep his Phylactery safe since he is vulnerable without it,
Yes, quite vulnerable. Vulnerable to death.
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Actually a haversack can be either, depends on how you want it defined, on something like the Handy Haversack, I'd say it's closer to a backpack, ala this or this, including the clips.Given that one of the advantages is that you can pull something out of it instantly, I'd say the purse-variant seems more likely, since that doesn't involve awkwardly reaching over your shoulder and fumbling around aimlessly.
I don't know, is it awkward for archers to reach behind their backs to grab arrows? How about things like swords? Either way, it's only considered non-manly to civilians, the US military uses Haversacks, typically to keep their gas masks in.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down?
Next to you.
Or when you sleep?
Next to you. Possibly under your head.
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So it is reasonable that a wizard will hold his spellbook while engaging in some fun at a local brothel because it is that valuable, but it is unreasonable to expect them to spend the resources to make at least a rudimentary back up book in case it is lost or destroyed?
I rate this post five Elder Signs out of five!
especially given that on this board it seems to be standard practice to dump a wizard's strength down to pretty low levels (many builds I've seen here would probably suffer encumbrance penalties if their robes happened to get wet).
Fortunately, your choice of Ant Haul or Muleback Cords have made hauling that stuff everywhere ridiculously easy/cheap, even if you have a 7 STR.
Not what I consider one of the better thought out bits of Pathfinder, but what can you do?
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I have an idea just have your famiilar sleep on the backpack. Also I have wondered if handy haversacks make good pillows. Or use it as a pillow yourself.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Yeah. Yeah, you don't need to bath with prestigidation (cleans you)
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.A low level wizard, fine. At low levels just buy another.
A high level wizard mugged? By what? Epic thieves? Other spellcasters? A Lich thief?
Big bad just got a two-fer. Stole the spellbook and killed the familiar. :P
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We live in a REAL world where shoes that are only as magical as a sports celebrity's endorsement are literally stolen off the feet of people.How often is backpack snatching happen compared to purse snatching?
Hint: Purse are on shoulder/arm, backpacks are more secure (straps).
I like to think of that as the same way I think about magical weapons. Basically, you weren't tough enough to keep your shoes/incredibly powerful weapon/whatever, then clearly you shouldn't have been walking around with them where everyone could see. In places where such things happen either wear crappy shoes/weapons/etc. or travel with a group capable of handling whatever you might come across.
Regarding NPCs vs. Spellbooks - How it's Done
Want a fine, not so contrived example? Here's how to do it.
Step 1: Become an enemy of the PCs.
Step 2: Survive long enough to start up your new hobby - taking out the party.
Step 3: Realize that the PCs are too tough to take using direct methods (often via the loss of many minions).
Step 4: Begin gathering information - talk to NPCs they meet, tell your minions to escape & report, spy from a distance, or simply hire someone to be the PCs' friend for awhile (Bluff = "My son/friend/nephew is among them; keep him safe for awhile, and see if there's anything that his friends could use some help with. Here are some coins, enough for a month's service. Catch up with me then and we'll talk about your travels."), or send more minions and scry on the PCs' MO/tactics.
Step 5: Discover the lack of protection of spellbook/familiar.
Step 6: Conclude that since the PCs' lives are too difficult a target, make the spellbook/familiar a target - a weakened wizard means a weakened enemy.
Step 7+: Plot and conspire to destroy the spellbook; invisible pickpockets who discreetly remove the book during a diversionary minion attack... make attacks on wizard's haversack... stun & grab & escape...
Step 4 would require a bluff check, and hope that nobody beats the DC, and it would mean the PC's would have to be willing to babysit and NPC. Everyone group I was in has hated the idea, and eventually left the NPC at some inn, feeling that having them around was not a good idea.
Also has anyone mentioned that depriving a wizard of his spellbook is an excellent way to slow a party down. If the Badguys goal is simply to have the time to accomplish a task, stealing the book should accomplish that. And sure the wizard will be angry if you steal his book, but less angry then if you kill him.
I mentioned it earlier and I also mentioned why it was a bad idea. In short the "stealer's" life is in danger, and so there is no reason to steal the book since it will only annoy the party, and have them kill him, and his boss later, and the boss most likely already knows this.
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I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.
Oddly enough, I do. All of my gaming or college supplies (depending on day of the week and the time of day) are in my backpack, and I sleep with it... not really on purpose, my bed just happens to be where I throw it out of habit.
The farthest away from it I ever am is when I go to the grocery store (even then only if I'm getting cold stuff, because I'll take a cab back, and I don't need a backpack then) or when I am at my store, when I throw it behind the counter.
What I learned from this thread:
Only PCs are allowed to come up with creative solutions. If an NPC ever does something unexpected, then the GM is a bad bad evil man who should be slapped by the wizard player, and forced to apologize for not just saying "You win D&D!" the second someone choses to make a wizard.
You need to read the thread again.
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.Cause PC's expect NPC's to behave like PC's? Why wouldn't someone want to steal an immensely expensive item?
Define "expected."
Why is anyone going to expect that NPCs will suddenly start rifling through players' packs to find all their books, then sort through those to find the spellbook and then steal or sunder it????
Do PCs act that way?
How often do the PCs sneak into the mega-evil hideout and steal HIS stuff without forcing a confrontation?
I mean bags on the PCs' persons. "Quick, it's night. Go find the Wizard's spellbook!"
And why would the PCs expect the NPCs to attack their luggage? I mean really, who expects that? Does anyone? Why?
With archers, monk, casters, and animal companions that does not work so well in magic land when you know the "mark" is an adventurer.
Someone said that stealing a spellbook would be the start of a quest to get it back. EVERYONE has failed to answer WHY anyone would go on such a quest if the Wizard has a backup spellbook or 3. No, they have solely nagged on my point that the Wizard would be unable to contribute to said quest because OF COURSE the Wizard could contribute - he would have a backup spellbook otherwise he would be a bad Wizard!Well, since you mentioned it specifically...
A spellbook is more than just a collection of spells. It also contains notes, reflections, magical theory, metamagical shorthand, references, and whatever else the wizard deems appropriate.
No, in factuality (fact + actuality), it is simply a collection of spells. Anything else is fluff created by the player. Anything that is fluff NOT created by the player is jerkass DM fiating.
Probably even journal entries and notations on magical items the party has.
Seriously? Where the hell are you going to put this in a spellbook? You have any idea how much room SPELLS take up? Moreover, why are you going to pay 15gp for a a NOTEBOOK? You have any idea how much 15gp ACTUALLY IS? A journal would be like 2cp.
No wizard ever has a spellbook that's just a laundry list of spells;
Please do not assert that YOU are every Wizard. It's wrong in at least two directions.
even if they did, another wizard could figure out that wizard's specialty and prohibitions, and preferred spells.
What.
If one of my players' wizards ever had his spellbook stolen by a rival and merely shrugs his shoulders and says "oh well, I have another!", that's my cue as a GM to make sure from that point forward said rival builds his spell list to specifically counter and shut down the PC unless they go out of their way to change their habits and preferences from that point forward. Losing a spellbook is that bad.
Good luck doing that. I presume as a strict, anti-PC, anti-player GM, you SPECIFICALLY require your Wizard players to list out which spells and in what amount he prepares his spells each day (which even at the best of times CAN'T be EVERY spell in the spellbook). Your anti-Wizard PC Wizard NPC better be the best diviner on the continent to actually be able to specifically be able to counter the PC on any given day.
The opposite holds true as well; if the PC gets his hands on his rival's spellbook, that rival is pretty screwed.
No, he's not. Same reason.
"Okay, upon reflecting on Mordrin's spellbook, you know he's an evoker who prohibited necromancy and divination, and has a real affinity for rays and electricity spells.
Mordrin is a Conjurer focusing on Summoning. Counter, go.
Mordrin is an Evoker of the Admixture school. Counter, go.He doesn't buff his comrades much, preferring instead to buff himself. He has the invisibility pages dog eared, and he has some shorthand notes in there on silencing lightning bolt and quickening shocking grasp. You're figuring he invisibles himself and uses it as a quick 1-2 punch to incapacitate weak party members before making a quick retreat."
That's pretty clever. I guess. It at least gives you a heads up to use electricity resistance. Unless he is an admixture Evoker who then changes his 1-2 punch to fire upon discovery of loss of his spellbook. Or maybe he is an NPC Wizard who you stole his book while wandering through his dungeon. I guess he can't change logically on the fly. Though once attack vector A fails to be as effective, we now change to strategy Z because B and C are going to be obviously known.
PS. Prohibiting a school in Pathfinder doesn't mean you can't cast from it. Which you should know because you can't prohibit Divination in 3.5 anyway. He probably makes sure to have a Touch of Fatigue reserved for just such an occasion.Plus, wizards may have in that spellbook spells they don't want to fall into other wizards' hands. Munchkins'R'Us aside, wizards aren't exactly advocates for freedom of information.
What the hell are you even talking about now?
I know if I were playing a wizard and got my hands on Time Stop (typically a rare and jealously-guarded spell),
Aka, a spell any Wizard or Sorcerer can learn at 18th level.
If I were a BBEG with a PC party (who were powerful enough for me to be concerned), I'd attack their support system so that, by the time they got to me, they'd hopefully be weak enough that I could defeat them.Please explain, in detail, why you think that is logical support for the PCs' baggage being assaulted directly by the enemy.I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.When faced with an enemy too big to face head on, destroying the enemy's support can weaken the enemy to increase your odds of victory.
Why are you assuming their "support system" is in their backpacks solely and specifically?
In over 20 years of playing D&D, I have literally never seen a wizard leave their spellbook unattended in a room in an inn.I've seen all kinds of crazy crap! I've seen an adventure in which every party member but one was an intelligent magic item worn by the aforementioned one. I've seen players go multiple sessions of a combat-heavy module while resolving all conflicts non-violently. I've seen all-caster parties and no-caster parties and parties of all the same race. I've seen parties in which every player had some kind of woefully crippled challenge character.
But I have never, never, never seen a wizard just leave their spellbook somewhere and walk off.
So.. yeah, I think that's incredibly contrived.
So you're saying the wizard takes a pack containing his spellbook (which get bigger and may require multiple volumes as he levels):
in the inn common room for dinner
to the latrine to take a dump
to the brothel for a little fun
on every shopping trip he goes on
to the temple for whatever holy days he observes
to meetings with the local authoritiesOr, I suppose, he does none of these things while living out of an inn? Does he ever leave the spellbook at home?
For a wizard with a portable hole or other large enough extra-dimensional space, these things tend to make more sense. But then, that's the wizard who has taken more than a minimal precaution in protecting his spellbook in the first place.
A contrived example? Not so much in my experience.
He should have it with him or with a fellow party member. I never left mine anywhere. Now if I went to the bathroom that was inside my room then how is the bad guy going to know what 60 second time period my spellbook got left on the nightstand or bag of holding for?
I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down?Next to you.
Or when you sleep?Next to you. Possibly under your head.
Then you've never seen a real world person with anything of value in his backpack or briefcase. I keep my "bag containing hundreds of dollars in collected valuables" in my sight at all times when it isn't someplace safe - like somewhere where one can lock away access to it.
I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down?Next to you.
Or when you sleep?Next to you. Possibly under your head.
I keep my backpack with me a lot but not all the time. Remember if the PCs do not have a house with locks and have a lot of money where are they keeping their backpack then. When I commute to college I keep my backpack with me basicaly all the time I am there. It feels wierd for me to be walking around campus without having my backpack. I only leave it really and not have it on when A I am in my house I set it down or B I am in a car on a short trip or going to the grocery store or other places or my grandparents house rarely. and this time it is in a house with usually someone home. I don't keep it next to me 24/7 at my house because it is unlikely to get stolen there. and then I keep it in my room.
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2. Wizard keeps his spellbook in his bag. Local cutpurse lives up to his name and steals bag, not knowing what is inside but figuring it is valuable. Then, realizing what he has tries to fence it to BBEG. Quest ensues.How is he going to realize what he has? At BEST he MIGHT realize its a spellbook and try to sell it to the local Wizard's collective or something.
Aren't you the one who's constantly arguing that if it's not a high-magic world, you're doing it wrong? They pay some hedge wizard a couple of silver to cast Read Magic and tell them what they have. :P
3. Party is captured and all items are taken from party, including weapons and spellbook (you may remember this from the opening to one of the APs…)At what point do they get them back? Never? Wizard, roll a new character
Here's the real root of the problem with you. You're unwilling to suffer the "indignity" of even a brief nerfing. You have made it abundantly clear that if you are not 100% guaranteed victory, then you don't consider the game worth playing. To most people, a game that DID consist of a 100% guaranteed victory would be pretty damn boring and hollow.
4. Wizard escapes by running away but is forced to leave his equipment behind for one reason or another (perhaps because of a night ambush, perhaps he is turned into a newt…who knows…)What.
Seriously? You don't understand that? C'mon, I may disagree with you about pretty much every single aspect of play style, but I didn't think you were slow
That is off the top of my head, and didn’t include any of the lovely off the wall strawmen that people in the “Don’t take my book camp” keep bringing up.Seriously? You just listed three of them.
As has been pointed out many, many times, basic spellbooks can be purchased from any magic shop in the same way basic magic weapons can be purchased from any magic shop.Unless in your Kthulhu's, or any other true role-player's game, where they DON'T sell those things in magic shops because it gives the Wizard "too much power."
First off, my distaste for the magi-mart has nothing to do with me being "a true roleplayer" or not. To be honest, I fall about in the middle on the roleplaying vs rollplaying issue...I like to have a decently well rounded character and to play them in character, but quite often I'd be happy to skip much of the social portions of some scenarios and get to the bit I truly enjoy: the adventuring, exploring, and fighting. In fact, this probably contributes some to my distaste for magi-marts...I find shopping incredibly boring (both in game and in real life), and I think it's just inherently cooler to use the loot you find rather than purching all your gear from the friendly local magi-mart. (One in every village!)
Secondly, a magi-mart is NOT the only source for a wizard who finds himself bereft of a spellbook. He could visit his old teacher, the one who originally taught him magic. He could seek out a well-known local (or not so local) mage. Hell, he could stoop to asking the town adept to scribe some scrolls. Just because a magi-mart (your one-stop shop for anything from ion torches to artifacts!) isn't around, that doesn't mean that magic itself is non-existent.
Rather than fighting the strawmen scenarios, let’s produce a few realistic ones off the top of my head.
1. You let the players find or even make a unique spell (this occurs in at least on AP I can think of with a spell every high level wizard would want). Or they are just a wizard with lots of spells. Either way BBEG Wizard hears your wizard has a spell in his book that he wants to learn and sends minions for the book so he can learn the spell. Quest ensues.
He is going to steal the book instead of asking to trade a spell? Even worse he is sending minions to possibly die in the attempt? Even if the book is not stolen the PC's now see this guy as a threat, and will probably aim to kill.
2. Wizard keeps his spellbook in his bag. Local cutpurse lives up to his name and steals bag, not knowing what is inside but figuring it is valuable. Then, realizing what he has tries to fence it to BBEG. Quest ensues.
Most professional thieves study their marks. If he does not know the spellbook is invetiable death he is probably an amateur, and should not be able to get the book.
3. Party is captured and all items are taken from party, including weapons and spellbook (you may remember this from the opening to one of the APs…)
The party being taken prisoner makes sense.
4. Wizard escapes by running away but is forced to leave his equipment behind for one reason or another (perhaps because of a night ambush, perhaps he is turned into a newt…who knows…)
What reason would someone have to drop their equipment? If someone can turn you into a newt they can probably kill you.
Other than number 3 it takes some contriving to make it work and make it reasonable.
Then you've never seen a real world person with anything of value in his backpack or briefcase. I keep my "bag containing hundreds of dollars in collected valuables" in my sight at all times when it isn't someplace safe - like somewhere where one can lock away access to it.I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down?Next to you.
Or when you sleep?Next to you. Possibly under your head.
'
Yeah when I am attending college I have my laptop graphing caluclator and expensive textbooks in my backpack which totaled up cost over $1,000 to replace do I really want to be leaving that around.
Have you heard of the new fad amongst the young folk. It's called purse snatching. I think they do it for the thrill, but some studies have come out that kids think people sometimes carry valuable things in bags. If you check out some of the fringe newspapers in your area they may carry stories about it. Most of our knowledge of it is second hand, but we are discovering more every day.
You do realize Heward Handysack is a backpack not a purse. You are thinking of the bag of holding.
Wrong goalposts. Wrong fad.
How often is backpack snatching happen compared to purse snatching?
Hint: Purse are on shoulder/arm, backpacks are more secure (straps).Where do you put your backpack when you sit down? Or when you sleep?
The fighter has to don armor when attacked at night or suffer penalties, does the wizard sleep with a back pack on?
Not to mention that people do sometimes steal backpacks. In the wrong part of town a party could get mugged.
When you sleep or sitdown with the backpack off you are normally in a secure area. Most common thugs are not higher than a CR 2. Jumping adventurers is just not a good idea.
Someone said that stealing a spellbook would be the start of a quest to get it back. EVERYONE has failed to answer WHY anyone would go on such a quest if the Wizard has a backup spellbook or 3. No, they have solely nagged on my point that the Wizard would be unable to contribute to said quest because OF COURSE the Wizard could contribute - he would have a backup spellbook otherwise he would be a bad Wizard!Well, since you mentioned it specifically...
A spellbook is more than just a collection of spells. It also contains notes, reflections, magical theory, metamagical shorthand, references, and whatever else the wizard deems appropriate. Probably even journal entries and notations on magical items the party has. No wizard ever has a spellbook that's just a laundry list of spells; even if they did, another wizard could figure out that wizard's specialty and prohibitions, and preferred spells. In short, a spellbook is a glimpse into a wizard's psyche, preferences, strengths and weaknesses, in modern parlance it's his social security number; not something a PC wizard ever wants to fall into the hands of a rival or enemy.
If one of my players' wizards ever had his spellbook stolen by a rival and merely shrugs his shoulders and says "oh well, I have another!", that's my cue as a GM to make sure from that point forward said rival builds his spell list to specifically counter and shut down the PC unless they go out of their way to change their habits and preferences from that point forward. Losing a spellbook is that bad.
The opposite holds true as well; if the PC gets his hands on his rival's spellbook, that rival is pretty screwed. "Okay, upon reflecting on Mordrin's spellbook, you know he's an evoker who prohibited necromancy and divination, and has a real affinity for rays and electricity spells. He doesn't buff his comrades much, preferring instead to buff himself. He has the invisibility pages dog eared, and he has some shorthand notes in there on...
By RAW that book only contains spell unless the player says otherwise. You have no control over what goes into that book. Maybe he keeps his magical theories, if any at all, in a different book.
And if you sneak up on a wizard, they are about the easiest class to mug, considering the low AC, CMD, saves, etc...
Maybe in your games....
Aren't you the one who's constantly arguing that if it's not a high-magic world, you're doing it wrong? They pay some hedge wizard a couple of silver to cast Read Magic and tell them what they have. :P
Yes, because the game is DESIGNED as a high-magic world.
The cost of spellcasting as a service is going to run you at least 10gp. Maybe there was some spare gold in the large bag with the book in it, but I would think the gold would be kept in a gold pouch on the belt more likely.Here's the real root of the problem with you. You're unwilling to suffer the "indignity" of even a brief nerfing. You have made it abundantly clear that if you are not 100% guaranteed victory, then you don't consider the game worth playing. To most people, a game that DID consist of a 100% guaranteed victory would be pretty damn boring and hollow.
That didn't seem to even remotely answer my question.
Moreover, how, exactly, does a Wizard needing a class feature to continue being played mean I want 100% victory?Perhaps we should start the AP with the Fighter being permanently blinded and it can't be fixed without diefic intercession. Would that change your ridiculous reply?
Seriously? You don't understand that? C'mon, I may disagree with you about pretty much every single aspect of play style, but I didn't think you were slow
I don't remotely understand how or why that would even occur.
Does the Fighter inexplicably run away from camp, leaving his weapons and armor? Why? "Sorry, gotta run and leave my ability to continue contributing meaningfully to the game behind."Secondly, a magi-mart is NOT the only source for a wizard who finds himself bereft of a spellbook. He could visit his old teacher, the one who originally taught him magic.
DM fiat mea culpa for not allowing the players access shops selling magic.
He could seek out a well-known local (or not so local) mage.
Who will graciously let the PC use his spellbook? How is this different from magic mart selling spellbooks and scrolls?
Hell, he could stoop to asking the town adept to scribe some scrolls.
Do I even need to address THAT?
Ah, so it's ...
simply
a
matter
of
basic
ignorance?
O I C.
Allow me to provide information for your education.
Imagine taking or destroying the whole haversack...
Ignorance is common.
You can attempt to take an item from a foe as a standard action. This maneuver can be used in melee to take any item that is neither held nor hidden in a bag or pack. You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to attempt this maneuver. You must select the item to be taken before the check is made. Items that are simply tucked into a belt or loosely attached (such as brooches or necklaces) are the easiest to take. Items fastened to a foe (such as cloaks, sheathed weapons, or pouches) are more difficult to take, and give the opponent a +5 bonus (or greater) to his CMD. Items that are closely worn (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) cannot be taken with this maneuver. Items held in the hands (such as wielded weapons or wands) also cannot be taken with the steal maneuver—you must use the disarm combat maneuver instead. The GM is the final arbiter of what items can be taken. If you do not have the Improved Steal feat or a similar ability, attempting to steal an object provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
On the other hand, this is a high fantasy RPG. GM's have license to make villains quirky, idiosyncratic, over the top, outside-the-box, or simply abonormal. That's what makes for a memorable villain.
*spoiler about Hitler vs Lavrentiy*
Remember, when we're talking Big Bads we're already talking about characters who by merit of the role they fill are already on society's fringe, violate societal norms, and in all likelihood have serious psychological problems. It doesn't matter what kind of society from which they come, they've done or are something that sets them apart from the rank-and-file, especially in societies where evil would be the norm. Not every Big Bad must be a Bond villain, but remember we're talking about a subset of characters which have a dramatically higher chance of being one. Unless you're running aforementioned deconstructive villain, you want your Big Bads to stand out and engage the party in ways that will frustrate and hinder them, and make them want to kill the Big Bad.
Yeah, but it doesn't mean they have to be stupid. There are plenty of examples of characters who are over the top, cruel, sadistic, messed up, insane, or just outright weird villains in the Adventure Paths alone. You're still getting awfully specific for something that is being touted as the GM not being overly easy on the players. You wanna not be overly easy on 'em? Well then anyone who's going to be able to steal the spellbook can just kill them. That much is simple. Wanna know what is especially crippling to your foes? Death and the loss of their treasures. If they get past Death, then they're still weakened.
Also your commentary about Hitler and Lavrentiy, I know who comes up in the minds of people most often. I know who makes an appearance on the History Channel more often. I know whose armies have been used as inspiration for evil empires in fiction. I know who is the quintessential archtype for an amazingly charismatic evil ruler. Hitler had his issues too. He thought he and his ambitions were backed by divine authority, and believed the many failed assassination attempts against him (often by sheer luck it seemed) were evidence to the divine protection he had. That's quirky enough for me.
If you want villains to stand out for being cracked, then the vast majority of those villains cannot be cracked. Joker wouldn't be special if Bane, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Penguin, Solomon Grundy, Clayface, and Lex Luther were just like him. Carnage wouldn't be carnage if he wasn't so b!!%%~! insane compared to villains like Rhino, Scorpion, Hobgoblin, Green Goblin, and so forth. Since you mentioned the Joker, I'm assuming you like coming book villains; so let's talk about the Kingpen who is the iconic criminal mastermind of Marvel Comics, who even has some weird sense of honor sometimes (he has a boxing match with Daredevil at one point IIRC); but he's a bad man and if he could have a hero wiped out in his sleep then he probably would.
They're NPCs, they don't have to be perfect planners. In fact, it's best if they're not; that "one little chink" in the NPCs plan humanizes them, makes the whole thing realistic opposed to Convenient Deus ex Machina, and gives the party a lead in tracking the book down and/or getting revenge. The "stolen/damaged/destroyed spellbook" works at its best as, and it ought to be, a plot hook rather than an arbitrary kick to the PC's daddy bag. That's just good GM'ing.
Actually yeah they do. Otherwise they're dead NPCs. I cannot stand - as a player - to see high level NPCs who are stupid. Sorry, I just don't think you get to 12th level in Big Bad Evil Guy with tons of minions and such because you're a moron. This is triply so if they're something like a wizard or someone with even above-average advisers.
There are a lot of plot hooks that don't suck this much. Stealing the PC's spellbook is something that isn't easy unless they make it easy. Walking up and stealing a big tome out of the possessions of a magician isn't exactly easy. There are many counters for it, and enough counters to know that if they so much as bothered with a single counter, you'd be in big trouble.
It again goes back to "if you can easily steal his book, you can easily slit his throat".
If the wizard was drunk or drugged at the time (exploring the implications of that depends on the maturity of the GM and their players, and the game atmosphere they want to foster), as a GM I'd find the "intimate familiarity" argument an extremely tough sell by the PC's given a drunken one-night stand, while physically intimate, is hardly anything else.
Man did you guys just see that goalpost? Displacement spells are crazy! Man, now you're getting into drugged/drunk, in addition to being picked up by some NPC bard who is hot for his wizardly rod and his spellbook, because apparently the bard has nothing better to do. Especially tricky since to actually drug the wizard you'd have to hope he has no detect poison prepared (I know most smart wizards keep this lovely cantrip prepped). While a drunkard wizard might be somewhat interesting, I don't really imagine wizards as the type to just get drunk regularly.
As far as sovereign glue or universal solvent, by RAW, no. Given the nature of the items, I know some GM's (myself included) who treat them as semi-alchemical, semi-magical goods that due to their nature and cost are on the wondrous items table. That doesn't preclude the same sleight of hand check simply used to pour the contents of a sovereign glue or universal solvent vial inside the backpack. Or, if the GM is a stickler, just using tanglefoot glue or alchemical solvent in the same trick.
Way to make up stuff to try and support your claims. I really don't care about your special house rules for allowing spells to work on magic items when they specifically say they don't, anymore than I care about Joe Shmoe's house rules that whenever you roll a 20 on an attack roll it automatically kills your target because "that's more realistic" or something.
I don't know what an alchemical solvent is, but tanglefoot bags harden when they are exposed to air, so just pouring them into something would be tricky to say the least. They also turn brittle and break apart in less than a minute, so you'd find some crumbs inside your bag. So terrible.
Look, as long as you're making up stuff that doesn't exist to try and prove your point, and making up rules to try and justify it, sure you can totally take the wizard's spellbook. Hey, check this out, you could just house rule that wizards have to give their book to the first NPC who asks nicely. Then your argument is entirely valid, and it's suddenly easy to target their spellbook over anything else.
Either way, none of those are (or should be) perfect ways to damage, destroy, or steal a wizard's spellbook, especially if the wizard takes the time to properly protect it. If it were a perfect method it would be worthless as a plot point and just arbitrary GM farkery which is a bad thing no matter the context. My ultimate point is, the presumption round these parts is that going after a wizard's spellbook is under any and every circumstance GM metagaming and arbitrarily screwing over PC's, and ought never be done. While it may be true poor GM's do this for that reason, it is not automatically and under every circumstances the case, and arguing that is simply wrong and a borderline munchkinish thing to do.
Most of those would be pretty useless anyway. If it were my spellbook, I'd keep it wrapped in cloth while inside my bag. I'd probably also keep a stone of alarm in the bag too, so if anyone was stupid enough to stick their hands where they didn't belong it would unleash a hellish screaming, alerting me that that person needs to be turned into a worm and given to the ranger to catch fish with.
If I were a BBEG with a PC party (who were powerful enough for me to be concerned), I'd attack their support system so that, by the time they got to me, they'd hopefully be weak enough that I could defeat them.Please explain, in detail, why you think that is logical support for the PCs' baggage being assaulted directly by the enemy.I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.When faced with an enemy too big to face head on, destroying the enemy's support can weaken the enemy to increase your odds of victory.
....as opposed to just killing them and being done with it. What situation can you come up with where it is easier/better to steal the book, and not kill the party knowing full well that they will probably try to kill you?
....as opposed to just killing them and being done with it. What situation can you come up with where it is easier/better to steal the book, and not kill the party knowing full well that they will probably try to kill you?If I were a BBEG with a PC party (who were powerful enough for me to be concerned), I'd attack their support system so that, by the time they got to me, they'd hopefully be weak enough that I could defeat them.Please explain, in detail, why you think that is logical support for the PCs' baggage being assaulted directly by the enemy.I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.When faced with an enemy too big to face head on, destroying the enemy's support can weaken the enemy to increase your odds of victory.
Please don't give LT any more of a reason to dodge the question. I am not talking about the spellbook because to talk about that you have already bypassed question 1 - WHY is anyone attacking the party's BAGS.
I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.
Where do you put your backpack when you sit down?Next to you.
Or when you sleep?Next to you. Possibly under your head.
Nothing that valuable is left undetected. If you steal a car it might have a way to trace a it, and a VIN Number. Spellbooks don't have that so not keeping it near you or safe by other means is not really an option. Maybe I am just a paranoid gamer though, but at least if you get a player like me you can't say they did not take steps to protect it.
I've never seen a real world person keep a backpack or briefcase or whatever next to them 24x7x365. Explain to me how a PC could be expected to do the same.Oddly enough, I do. All of my gaming or college supplies (depending on day of the week and the time of day) are in my backpack, and I sleep with it... not really on purpose, my bed just happens to be where I throw it out of habit.
The farthest away from it I ever am is when I go to the grocery store (even then only if I'm getting cold stuff, because I'll take a cab back, and I don't need a backpack then) or when I am at my store, when I throw it behind the counter.
A better example of value to a person would be a CELL PHONE. Them things can be pricey. Plenty of people keep it next to them or on them 24/7.
Now consider how much more important that spellbook is to a wizard. Not hard to believe at all.
Indeed, the big one they leave out to be stolen is probably the one filled with glyphs, symbols, sepia sigils, and explosive runes.
==Aelryinth
Hell, he could stoop to asking the town adept to scribe some scrolls.Do I even need to address THAT?
I'm not sure how anyone would address that. I mean, adepts don't scribe arcane scrolls. They scribe divine scrolls. That means adept scrolls are useless for wizards.
When you sleep or sitdown with the backpack off you are normally in a secure area. Most common thugs are not higher than a CR 2. Jumping adventurers is just not a good idea.
Not to mention that most orc warriors or hobgoblin soldiers who are born and bred for killtastic thuggery and combat are CR 1/3 and 1/2 respectively. I'd seriously have to question some things when the average street thug is CR 2. Unless of course you're using the premade NPCs in the Gamemastery Guide, 'cause those are just stupid. Those NPCs make you wonder why the barkeeper and his serving girls didn't pound the crap out of anything resembling a goblin in Rise of the Runelords #1, and easily make you wonder why PCs do anything when CR 3-4 commoners are running around a dime a dozen.
When you sleep or sitdown with the backpack off you are normally in a secure area. Most common thugs are not higher than a CR 2. Jumping adventurers is just not a good idea.Not to mention that most orc warriors or hobgoblin soldiers who are born and bred for killtastic thuggery and combat are CR 1/3 and 1/2 respectively. I'd seriously have to question some things when the average street thug is CR 2. Unless of course you're using the premade NPCs in the Gamemastery Guide, 'cause those are just stupid. Those NPCs make you wonder why the barkeeper and his serving girls didn't pound the crap out of anything resembling a goblin in Rise of the Runelords #1, and easily make you wonder why PCs do anything when CR 3-4 commoners are running around a dime a dozen.
Seriously. Didn't an ex-adventurer own the tavern in RotR?
I think the PCs were probably the least competent fighters in town when the Goblins attacks. Or rather, all the other competent fighters are conveniently away on business. I forget.
Geez, considering how common these spellbook thieves are, you'd think wizards with their 18+ Int would be smart enough to think of placing their spells on something that's not so conspicuous and easy to snatch. Like I dunno, tatoos... And even though there are no rules for it, you'd think the 'min-maxing' wizard with 7 Str and 20 Int would try to thread his spells into his cloak (yes, I know there are no rules to support such a thing, but why aren't there other than this preconceived notion of 'balance'; take the rule of cool). If spellbook thieves are so common you'd think there would be a whole slew of things to graft your magical knowledge onto such as stones, jewelry, clothing, an interdimensional library, anything other than a heavy tomb to be snatched out of your bag by some magical ninja. But there aren't so I assume it's not common probably because it is probably pretty difficult to obtain. That, or there's something wrong with all the wizards in your setting; they're not as smart as they think they are.
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1) Any thief that steals a spellbook is a dead man.
A) If he's a good thief, how is the wizard going to know who did it? The wizard wakes up, his haversack or backpack or whatever is gone. (Scry & Silenced dimension door, high stealth and disable device to get rid of any alarm spells, etc). Same goes for the fighter's sword, the paladin's cloak of resistance, etc. Anything you take off to sleep, if a thief is good enough to get in and take, you're not going to know who did it, and no way to know who did it.
B) What type of country are you in? Some countries, sure, you can go hunt him down and kill him with impunity. Others, you're going to end up with a writ of arrest on your head for murder. How many police do you have to kill before they hire an adventuring team as nasty as you to kill you, to make an example of you? Probably put up on pikes and paraded through the capital before a public beheading?
C) Suppose you kill him, if he's good enough to steal from wizards, he's probably got a resurection prepaid, and then *HE* is going to be ticked off, and if he's good enough to steal from you in the first place, he's good enough to assassinate your team, or know who to hire to do it.
D) What happens when you do track down the thief, and he's got the local baron/warlord/etc bought off? Now you have to decide if it's worth killing the thief to deal with this. Don't think a thief can afford this? See below...
2) If you can steal it, you should just kill them instead and take it.
A) Yep, we have never heard of the 'gentleman thief', such as Simon Templar, Thomas Crown, Arsene Lupin, and so on. Heck, you could just about put Robin Hood in that group, someone who steals but doesn't want to kill unless he has to. Why should we have such a character in the game, just because it's flavorful and colorful? Balderdash!
B) Why should I kill people? If I break in, kill them, and rob them, I'm no better than a thug. A common street riff-raff. If you do a good job protecting your things, then I don't come calling (until I can figure out how to bypass it!). But, you better believe I can carry a grudge if you don't play the game right. The game is, I steal and leave you alive, and if you can track me down, I either steal it back for you, or I steal something equally valuable for you.
C) You don't kill me, if you do, the insurance policy I took out with the assassins guild goes into effect, and you get dead real fast. Or my friend the Baron makes you an outlaw for murdering me. How do I afford it? Well, your average adventurer (level 10) has about 60,000 gold on his body in various goodies, all portable. Most of them do stupid things like putting half of it in handy haversacks for me to steal all at once! And they tend to travel in little packs of three to six! That's a cool 180,000 to 360,000 gold all in one tight little bunch! If I only make one good theft every 3 months, and I net two haversacks from each theft, I'm making more in one theft than the average guy makes in 10 lifetimes. You can buy a lot of assassins for that kind of gold. You can also pay for a resurrection in advance for it too. And believe me, as suave as I can be, I can be a real terror if you tick me off by killing me.
3) You can't possibly steal from us, it's X of us and 1 of you!
A) Hah! I don't steal from people who are at my level of power, I rip off little up and comer groups, and hire people of my power for protection. If I'm a journeyman (level 7) I rip off novices (level 4-5). If I'm a master (level 10), I rip of journeymen. If I am a grand master (15+) I rip off masters. Even if I screw up, I can usually hold my own against a couple of low-lifes long enough to get out of doge. Maybe if they impress me, I'll hire them later. Maybe if they tick me off, I'll come back with a better plan.
4) Why would you steal a spellbook, the fighter has much more expensive stuff!
A) For the challenge? Or maybe because your fighter friend's +3 plate mail makes way too much noise. Your spellbook is small, easily concealable, and portable. Same reason I'll take the +2 dagger you have, and the +3 cloak hanging up next to the bed. It's all about what I can carry out easiest. I just love those expensive bags of holding, I can shove three or four of them into a regular sack in under 12 seconds and sort out what I have later. If your spellbook is in there, goody for me. If not, I'm sure there will be something worth while. If not, the bags themselves will make a tidy profit.
B) I'm an arcane trickster, dufus. I can use that spell book myself. And if you come after me, I'll have exactly the right spells to deal with someone chasing me, will you have the right spells to deal with a thief who has your spellbook? Not bloody likely. That's assuming you can even figure out who has your precious (see above).
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That didn't seem to even remotely answer my question.
Moreover, how, exactly, does a Wizard needing a class feature to continue being played mean I want 100% victory?
Perhaps we should start the AP with the Fighter being permanently blinded and it can't be fixed without diefic intercession. Would that change your ridiculous reply?
Except from YOUR ridiculous reply, you won't take the time to see what options WERE available for the wizard. You hear "You don't start this adventure with your spellbook immediately available" and you're out the door.
Seriously? You don't understand that? C'mon, I may disagree with you about pretty much every single aspect of play style, but I didn't think you were slowI don't remotely understand how or why that would even occur.
Does the Fighter inexplicably run away from camp, leaving his weapons and armor? Why? "Sorry, gotta run and leave my ability to continue contributing meaningfully to the game behind."
Perhaps your character would just give up and let himself be killed rather than suffer an inconvenience. Most wouldn't.
Secondly, a magi-mart is NOT the only source for a wizard who finds himself bereft of a spellbook. He could visit his old teacher, the one who originally taught him magic.DM fiat mea culpa for not allowing the players access shops selling magic.
He could seek out a well-known local (or not so local) mage.Who will graciously let the PC use his spellbook?
What "let" ? He'd probably has some sort of quest he would send the character on in return. Oh noes! A chance for adventure!
See, to me, the game is about adventure. Not throwing money at problems until they go away.
Did anybody say that this should happen with unoppossed rolls?
We're not against clever NPC's. We're against god mode sues, which is what you'd have to be to pull off any plot like this without opposed rolls.
Yep. It was further up the thread. People were saying that giving the PCs a perception check to notice the omnipotent spies and thieves all around them was metagaming, as asking them to roll perception puts them on guard...
Rather than fighting the strawmen scenarios, let’s produce a few realistic ones off the top of my head.
1. You let the players find or even make a unique spell (this occurs in at least one AP I can think of with a spell every high level wizard would want). Or they are just a wizard with lots of spells. Either way BBEG Wizard hears your wizard has a spell in his book that he wants to learn and sends minions for the book so he can learn the spell. Quest ensues.
2. Wizard keeps his spellbook in his bag. Local cutpurse lives up to his name and steals bag, not knowing what is inside but figuring it is valuable. Then, realizing what he has tries to fence it to BBEG. Quest ensues.
3. Party is captured and all items are taken from party, including weapons and spellbook (you may remember this from the opening to one of the APs…)
4. Wizard escapes by running away but is forced to leave his equipment behind for one reason or another (perhaps because of a night ambush, perhaps he is turned into a newt…who knows…)
1 and 2 seem contrived to me.. 1 is still just easier to kill the wizard and take the spell... 2 the risk vs reward isn't great enough to steal from wizards...
Seriously... if all the players and DMs out here seem to think that wizards are some kind of OP super-god characters... why are the ordinary people STEALLING from them?? Even if you only ended up with a bag of the wizards' dirty laundry, it can still get you turned into a squirrel and roasted for dinner.
Now if BBEG is SCARIER then the mage in question, I could see them taking the risk... but still easier to kill them then risk them coming after you. After all.. BBEG wanted them slowed/stopped... NOW they're STOPPED!!
3 and 4 are legitimate situations that I would approve of. 3 screws over EVERYONE equally and can make for some fun drama... 4 is actually in the players CHOICE to abandon his gear (regardless of how suicidal staying would be...) it's still HIS choice to cut and run... Also fun! :)
I don't want to ruin your day, but this is D&D. There is a difference, definable and significant, between stealing something and attacking it. I am asking why the NPCs are attacking the PCs' bags.
So that they can steal it. One character sunders the bag, one character grabs it and runs. Wizards have low hit points, but there bags have less.