Movement Penalties - Solid Fog, Poor Visibility & Double Movement Costs

[Stynkk]

Here's an interesting question for you forumites:

Does a character who moves through Fog created by the Solid Fog spell use one quarter it's movement speed?

My logic is as follows:
Part 1:
Under PRD: Additional Rules: Movement: Tactical Movement: Table - Hampered Movement we see that "Poor Visibility" requires a character to move at half speed.

I assume fog, obscuring mist, darkness and the like fall into this Hampered Movement. Please let me know if this is not true.

Part 2:
Then in the Solid Fog spell description it states: "the Solid Fog is so thick that it impedes movement. Creatures moving through Solid Fog move at half their normal speed.."

Conclusion:
So we have Hampered Movement Penalties (Poor Visibility) + Solid Fog penalties (So thick it's hard to move). Does that seem right? They stack right?

[InsaneMuadib]

Personally I agree with you, but only due to a implication that I feel is made in the two different effects

Stynkk wrote:

Part 2:
Then in the Solid Fog spell description it states: "the Solid Fog is so thick that it impedes movement. Creatures moving through Solid Fog move at half their normal speed.."

This seems in my mind to imply almost a cartoon-ish thickness where the air itself impedes the movement, like walking through quicksand. Where the other reference you made:

Stynkk wrote:

Part 1:
Under "PRD: Additional Rules: Movement: Tactical Movement: Table - Hampered Movement" we see that "Poor Visibility" requires a character to move at half speed.

Seems to be made more as a reference to actual sight in the fog. So if I had a character who's senses didn't rely on sight I would allow them to negate the "poor visibility" rules.

However as a GM I wouldn't stack the effects of the two because I would declare that since the player is already moving so slowly from solid fog they have enough time to look around and orient themselves for the poor visibility.

[Stynkk]

Thanks for the insight.

InsaneMuadib wrote:

However as a GM I wouldn't stack the effects of the two because I would declare that since the player is already moving so slowly from solid fog they have enough time to look around and orient themselves for the poor visibility.

Interesting thought, I had not come to that conclusion.

[Diego Rossi]

InsaneMuadib make a good argument but the rules for hampered movement say: "If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling."

The spell description say: "This spell functions like fog cloud, but in addition to obscuring sight, the solid fog is so thick that it impedes movement. Creatures moving through a solid fog move at half their normal speed and take a –2 penalty on all melee attack and melee damage rolls.", so the spell clearly stated that it has 2 cumulative effects: 1) obscuring sight; 2) being so dense that it impede movements, cutting movement by half.

As there are several creatures immune from the first effect the two effects are kept separated.

InsaneMuadib wrote:

However as a GM I wouldn't stack the effects of the two because I would declare that since the player is already moving so slowly from solid fog they have enough time to look around and orient themselves for the poor visibility.

Reasonable, but it will somewhat penalize creatures with blindsight or free action that would be immune to one of the two effects.

[InsaneMuadib]

Diego Rossi wrote:

InsaneMuadib make a good argument but the rules for hampered movement say: "If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling."

Well thank you for the insight into the mechanics of this I haven't had much experience running through these mechanics so this was a stab in the dark for me. I expecially thank you for the text out of Hampered Movement as I didn't see that while reading and that changes everything.

[Quandary]

yeah, in the other thread it was mentioned that these aren't really the same mechanic at all, so it isn't stacking in the literal sence (or that mentioned in the hampered movement section). Solid Fog makes you move at half your movement speed (and you can't take 5' steps), Poor Vision doubles the cost to enter squares (which prevents taking 5' steps). Incidentally, Blindness makes you move at half speed (but doesn't prevent 5' steps).

I would lean towards Muadib's take, that since you are already moving at half speed (effectively, even if literally it is 2x cost to enter square) then that already covers the 'extra time' you need to move thru an area with Poor Vision. Techinically not RAW though I guess.

As I mentioned in the other thread, this brings up whether Poor Vision can really apply if you are Blind... IMHO, Blind's Acrobatics check to move at full speed should apply to Poor Vision as well (even though they use different mechanics to achieve 1/2 movement speed). Again, nothing RAW to link those (to say that Blind supersedes Poor Vision and/or Dazzled), but it's against logic to say that penalties for POOR vision apply when you can't see ANYTHING - If they DO 'stack', Poor Vision would then AUTOMATICALLY be invoked anytime you are Blind (can't see 60') but Blinded nowhere mentions that fact.