Character Wealth vs. Item Creation Feats: A new fact, a new answer?


Rules Questions


tl;dr - I found something that convinced me further that DMs are not supposed to compensate for lost wealth, and that item creation feats aren't supposed to give you double wealth. If you already know that, this thread is not for you, unless you want to argue with people that still do.

I've been reviewing what the benefits of item creation feats are, and when I did the math, I noticed something I'd missed before.

Wealth By Level does not agree with the Gold Per Encounter chart.

Previously I assumed that a character that adventured from level 1 to 20 would (according to the book) come across the same gold as a character generated at level 20, except that he had to constantly sell his unwanted items at a loss or (unrealistically) try to enchant to improve it.

Because of this, I began to assume that a DM was supposed to compensate for wealth loss. After all, if a character has 10k in equipment as his level assumes, then he sells a lot of it off at half price or loses it due to using potions / wands / paying for resurrections, then he isn't at the effectiveness the CR system is designed for while other characters generated at his level are on-par.

To take it a step further, if the DM compensates for all lost wealth -- even selling a +1 sword to buy a +2 sword -- then that would render item creation feats useless (after all, you already have cherrypicked equipment and full WBL). Unless, of course, their purpose was to increase your total character wealth beyond a character of your level.

Refuting that viewpoint, I recently ran through the Gold Per Encounter table. It resulted in a character that gained much more wealth than that. To demonstrate:

Assume a group of four 3rd level characters. A 3rd level character has a WBL of 3,000 gold, and a 4th level character has a WBL of 6,000. A 3rd-level character has 5,000 experience (Medium progression), while 4th level requires 9,000.

So, a character going from 3rd level to 4th requires a gain of 4,000 experience. Such a character gains 200 xp per on-CR encounter; so it takes 20 on-CR encounters to gain a level. During each of these encounters, a character's share of the treasure is 200 -- so over the course of 20 fights, he gains 4,000 gold, not 3,000.

4th to 5th -- +5,750; not +4,500
5th to 6th -- +7,750; not +5,500
6th to 7th -- +10,000; not +7,000

At this point, I am personally convinced that the system compensates for loss of wealth by giving more in over the course of a level than the next level is assumed to possess.

This is why characters appear to have cherrypicked equipment at the normal wealth by level in Adventure Paths -- without item creation feats. They've been adventuring, selling off the random equipment, and buying cherrypicked at a loss.

This allows a GM to perform his duties without keeping meticulous notes of purchases and sales and later filtering money back in.

This is why a single feat doesn't allow each member of the party to gain the benefits of a Cloak of Resistance +3 with the money saved on their +2 ability score item.

Liberty's Edge

I think you may have forgotten something: consumables.

Scrolls, potions, wands.

Those are supposed to come out of the money gained by adventuring, so a PC played through a level will have gained a bit more money than a PC created at the new level, because the played PC will have spent money on consumables during that level.

Also, you cannot assume that all encounters during a level will be at CR. You need to make something up to match the most common use of CR-1, CR, CR+1, CR+2 and a rare but nasty CR+3 set of encounters for teh level gained.


Callarek wrote:

I think you may have forgotten something: consumables.

Scrolls, potions, wands.

Those are supposed to come out of the money gained by adventuring, so a PC played through a level will have gained a bit more money than a PC created at the new level, because the played PC will have spent money on consumables during that level.

Also, you cannot assume that all encounters during a level will be at CR. You need to make something up to match the most common use of CR-1, CR, CR+1, CR+2 and a rare but nasty CR+3 set of encounters for teh level gained.

+1. We need more data regarding consumable amounts; particularly with the way adventurers burn CLW wands.


Trinam wrote:
Callarek wrote:

I think you may have forgotten something: consumables.

Scrolls, potions, wands.

Those are supposed to come out of the money gained by adventuring, so a PC played through a level will have gained a bit more money than a PC created at the new level, because the played PC will have spent money on consumables during that level.

Also, you cannot assume that all encounters during a level will be at CR. You need to make something up to match the most common use of CR-1, CR, CR+1, CR+2 and a rare but nasty CR+3 set of encounters for teh level gained.

+1. We need more data regarding consumable amounts; particularly with the way adventurers burn CLW wands.

What we really need are the consumable use expected by the people who made the charts, not the real consumable use.


Troubleshooter wrote:
This is why a single feat doesn't allow each member of the party to gain the benefits of a Cloak of Resistance +3 with the money saved on their +2 ability score item.

I'm not entirely certain I understand the mention about IC Feats giving double wealth and such... Could you please elaborate?

On your last statement: I do not see how your discovery, even if entirely true and generalizable, has any impact on the potential or real savings/gain from a feat like Craft Wondrous Item, at least as used in-game over the course of a career.

Perhaps some GMs allow players with these feats to "craft" the items they begin play with at half cost when bringing in a new PC over 1st level? I have never allowed it, nor have any GMs I have ran under, for anything other than some consumables.

Beyond those issues/questions, I would generally agree with what I believe you are pointing out and its intended impact. I have never bothered to run the numbers as you have done a basic analysis here, but I have suspected this was the case simply from advancing through APs and looking at WBL for backup characters.

I tend to play characters that are either very gear non-specific or only dependent on one or two particular items, and so I scavenge more from the enemy without taking the selling hit. In an AP (which I can only assume are built roughly to the PF GMing guidelines), if you are such a character, you will definitely come out at better than WBL in my experience.


A level 2 character (2k XP; 5k needed; 3k more XP required to level) vs:
CR 3s: 200xp each (15 fights to level); 800 awarded to party each fight; +3,000 gold.
CR 4s: 300xp each (10 fights to level); 1,150 gold each; +2,875 gold.
CR 5s: 400xp each (7-1/2 fights to level); 1,550 gold each; +2,906 gold.

The difference between Level 2 and level 3 WBL is +2,000 gold. Here, adventuring from 2nd to 3rd level has you come across nearly an extra half as much value in equipment as the difference between generated characters of levels 2 and 3.


Not to mention things like pricey raise dead / resurrection spells. Between the various costs incurred in adventuring (bribes, travel expenses, etc..) and consumable goods (healing potions, wands and such), that is where the money is going. Also, not every CR will actually give you a level-appropriate gold reward. Most Traps don't have a bag full of loot behind them, and not every dungeon makes up for that with conveniently placed treasure chests.

All that being said, both as a GM and a player, if I sell an item at 1/2 price, I'm not going to expect to GM to find ways to make the difference up to me for my own choice.


I personally think people worry far too much about WBL. Espically now that non-casters can make magic items. If you want to invest the feat for essentially extra gold, you go right ahead. Moreso if that feat is for consuables.

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