IMO, this is unnecessary and removing valuable tactics from the PC's. It's good for them to occacionly be able to pull of this kind of stuff; there's not too many times where this will be overpowering. And if it is, well, let them have their fun once or twice. The enemies will learn to adapt. Seriously, it's spending more or less three actions (two standard and a move/standard and full, ssdn) as well as a spell to possibly take out a single target.
I'd much rather just have a few hero points here and there, or have characters take iron will/improved iron will.
I think this leads to unnecessary complications in tracking how long someone's been helpless and, in effect, generates 2 versions of the helpless condition - the one initially given by the spell (helpless minus) and the full one a round later (helpless).
If you feel the need to slow down coups de grace, I would suggest either getting rid of them entirely or upping the action needed to a 1 round action (like a 1 round casting time) or two, and maybe making them disruptable with a simple hit. Then the accounting for time occurs with the coup action.
But at this point, you might as well just toss out coup de grace. Frankly, based on comments in the other thread and the premise in the initial post, that sounds the easier solution. If you don't want to bypass hp, don't allow the bypass of hp with a coup de grace. Have anyone wanting to finish off the helpless PC make normal attacks (with crits possible).
I don't understand why you have a problem with Hold Person being a 'free kill', and yet your idea of fixing it is 'make them wait one round for their free kill'.
Because by that point they will have had 2 saves instead of just one.
After a long discussion in the Rules folder about this, it's been mentioned that this is the more suitable folder for discussions like these.
This modification to the Coup de Grace rules addresses using a spell or ability to immediately render a target helpless and then have an ally Coup de Grace said target.
A character who is rendered helpless through the means of a spell or ability cannot be the subject of a Coup de Grace attempt until the beginning of the helpless character's next turn.
This is designed to combat the use of Hold Person and similar abilities as an effective 'save or die' spell.
For review's sake, here's the original text for CdG
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Thoughts for modifying this (not that I think it's needed, but that's irrelevant to this thread). These are all off the top of my head, so please bear that in mind.
- Make the Fortitude save either DC Weapon Damage+Precision Damage, or DC 10+BASE WEAPON Damage + Precision Damage (e.g. CdG with a dagger would be DC 10+1d4+SA damage). I like this because, as a Full-Round action, it implies that the person performing CdG is spending extra time to place the weapon where it'll deal the most damage (hence the critical strike), and therefore not able to put their full strength behind the attempt.
- Make CdG so that it's not auto-crit. Auto-hit might be good enough, and would allow the Fort Save DC to be lowered.
- Make an CMB vs. modified (flat-footed) CMD to hit a CdG.
- Special-Case DR, equal to their Fort Save, to take effect BEFORE the Fort save for CdG.
I personally prefer to have CdG be an out-of combat, narrative effect.
Those are some interesting edits.
I, too, obviously prefer cdgs as a narriative effect.
Reducing the save for cdgs makes them passable. Though, instead of auto critting, maybe just let them roll normal damage (including precision) and have that be the DC? It's not realistic that you'd survive being guillotined or stabbed precisely in the heart (sneak attack), but a character having his throat slit isn't always lethal and seldomly "instant".
I'd call Guillotining, a death effect, myself. For what it's worth, Headsmen (pretty much the epitome of a CdG) often took a few whacks to kill someone... and that's with a giant axe hitting the neck of someone not defending themselves.
CdG's don't always work on the first try, especially in a world where Divine Healing is an option.
As another thought, what about a CdG putting someone straight into negative HP? That would allow a CdG to be done as normal, but allow a healer to step in and save the character.
Yeah, I don't know why there isn't a rule that taking damage from AoOs while CdG'ing ruins the attempt, making it deal normal damage with no chance of instadeath.
That's a problem in general with actions that provoke AoO.
Player: "I relaod my crossbow"
DM: "You know that will provoke an AoO from those two orcs right?"
Player: "yeah, its OK"
DM: *roll* "Ok, that's 29 points of damage in total"
Player: "Ouch! So now that my crossbow is reloaded..."
I could have done the same scenario with disabling a trap, providing first aid, donning a suit of armor and in this case, coup de grace.
It used to be easy enough to houserule that such distraction would warrant a Concentration check DC 10 + damage or lose your action. (thinking of it, it might not have been a houserule at all...)
I guess you could make it a d20 + Con + character level check and use the chart in the magic section. Similar results, just less intuitive.
'findel
Those are some interesting edits.
I, too, obviously prefer cdgs as a narriative effect.
Reducing the save for cdgs makes them passable. Though, instead of auto critting, maybe just let them roll normal damage (including precision) and have that be the DC? It's not realistic that you'd survive being guillotined or stabbed precisely in the heart (sneak attack), but a character having his throat slit isn't always lethal and seldomly "instant".
I'd call Guillotining, a death effect, myself. For what it's worth, Headsmen (pretty much the epitome of a CdG) often took a few whacks to kill someone... and that's with a giant axe hitting the neck of someone not defending themselves.
CdG's don't always work on the first try, especially in a world where Divine Healing is an option.
As another thought, what about a CdG putting someone straight into negative HP? That would allow a CdG to be done as normal, but allow a healer to step in and save the character.
Well there are real life examples of that.
You could try a variant on 4E and have penalties for multiple consecutive failed saves vs HP with 2 or 3 saves counting the one when its cast leading up to paralysis.
This keeps the spell useful without leading to one round CdGs
what about a CdG putting someone straight into negative HP? That would allow a CdG to be done as normal, but allow a healer to step in and save the character.Well there are real life examples of that.
That was the example I was trying to think of. Thanks!