There seem to be a thousand threads about how to min/max your character and how to game the system to somehow "win."
How do you take a group of players who have fallen into this thought mode and snap them back into just playing in character and having them behave in a manner consistent with that?
How do you convince them that if they play reasonable characters without all the math and the loophole exploitation, the game can be MORE fun?
There seem to be a thousand threads about how to min/max your character and how to game the system to somehow "win."
How do you take a group of players who have fallen into this thought mode and snap them back into just playing in character and having them behave in a manner consistent with that?
How do you convince them that if they play reasonable characters without all the math and the loophole exploitation, the game can be MORE fun?
Ask them if (A) they would like to do it and (B) to try it. There's nothing inherently wrong with roll-playing just like role-playing isn't inherently better.
In any case there's nothing you can do to force people to play a certain way and I'd imagine that many attempts to "force" the issue will garner resentment or eye-rolling from the players. Instead of looking for ways to trick and lead players I think the best "start" that can be taken improve ROLE-playing is to have adult conversation.
Also: role-playing is a form of acting that some (re: many) people are nervous about doing just like some (re: many) people get stage fright.
Edit (WORD COUNT BOMB GO!): On a more helpful note I recommend adding more non-combat encounters, interesting social situations, make non-combat choices (save the girl hanging from the ledge or kill the bad guy) to combat scenarios, etc. Also asking players to be ready with their actions in a reasonable manner and ask people not to have "group discussion" about the use of everyone's actions. That has the supplementary benefit of making combat faster.
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Make sure the guy who's DMing roleplays better himself. Interesting NPCs, in-character speeches, lots of social encounters (not to be resolved just by dice rolls), a world where actions have consequences... all that good stuff...
... Of course, you may find that your group don't enjoy all that, and just enjoy crunching numbers and rolling dice. Or, you may find that they do enjoy all that... but keep optimising their characters as well...
... In the end, just try to relax and have fun! :)
I was not looking for ways to "force" anyone to do anything.
Just looking for suggestions on how to steer back into roleplaying versus power gaming.
Indeed an adult conversation is going to be the only route, what I was searching for was more dialogue that may have worked for some of you? Maybe suggestions on ways to assist in a transition?
There seem to be a thousand threads about how to min/max your character and how to game the system to somehow "win."
How do you take a group of players who have fallen into this thought mode and snap them back into just playing in character and having them behave in a manner consistent with that?
How do you convince them that if they play reasonable characters without all the math and the loophole exploitation, the game can be MORE fun?
Minmaxing is fun for some people and a lot of in character explantion only really can go on in the play by post forums. Playing in character is something you really need a mindset for and to think of a personality for a character. I think developing a story more interesting to the players will help.
It is also hard to discuss playing in character on forums.Being too weak a character and having people feel like they contribute nothing to a fight or combat is not fun and then combat lasts longer if you keep missing.
I was not looking for ways to "force" anyone to do anything.
Just looking for suggestions on how to steer back into roleplaying versus power gaming.
Indeed an adult conversation is going to be the only route, what I was searching for was more dialogue that may have worked for some of you? Maybe suggestions on ways to assist in a transition?
Fortunately I've never had to have that talk (my advice is supposition). Many people like the number crunching aspect and I think that encouraging good/more role-playing is a separate issue from min/maxing. The things @ProfPots said are all great ways to encourage more character development *especially* actions have consequences. When people realize that the game world responds (for good or ill) to their actions I'd imagine that it would encourage them to consider their actions/choices in ways that better integrate them into a setting.
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Honestly, I feel the best way is to 'lead by example'. The 'let's all role-play' talk isn't going to sit well with a lot of people (knee-jerk reactions and all that), but if you're the DM and you just do it... and the players have fun... then you're there.
It's a bit like being in a panto - acting a complete numpty by yourself is embarrassing... but acting a complete numpty when everyone else is doing it and having fun is just joining in.
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Its not easy, and requires work on both the GM and the players.
My games end up more in the roleplay side of things, because I make the world more believable and alive.
How do I do this for home brew games, I will literally fill out 6 to 7 4-NPC GM sheets detailing the character's stats, skills, and appearance, on the back side I note their personality and other things of note. And each of these 4-NPC sheets are generally a whole family and what each persons job is. Though some sheets cover those whom are single. If the NPC goes with the party or is someone very important I fill them out on a 2 page character sheet (3 pages for casters). I fill out the towns jobs, and draw out the town map.
I have the PCs interact with the NPCs and have the NPCs give real responses to what defines this NPC. I also have the NPCs move around and react to events that happen.
An example, a hamlet in a valley that has a traveling merchant come by (he only comes twice a year and is the only one that comes) most of the town would like to check out that merchant's wares and barter or purchase said wares that they need. The merchant would likely stay a day or two and could be telling stories in the evening in the tavern with most of the townsfolk listening.
If this is a published adventure, I add more NPCs or transfer the written NPCs to the 4-NPC sheets and add NPC activity. Like a group of women gossiping and toss in a perception check to get some of the gossip. Another idea is have the PCs spot something odd that an NPC is doing, like a male NPC peeping at women using a hotspring and have an event around that.
Azure Zero's Hollows Last Hope.
Read the free module in the module section of the paizo site and compare it to the way thing went in my PBP. You'll see I added life to the town and got Roleplay engaged in the PCs.
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The easiest way to add more "role" to roleplaying, is to do so as a DM.
Make the NPCs talk rather than just describe what they were trying to say. Give them personalities and have them be important to the story in some fashion (though not necessarily in an obvious way). Make sure you give even the most worthless NPC at least a tiny hint of personality. Make it so the player characters could actually cultivate relationships and have them matter. Have the fighter become friends with a good local blacksmith and have him be the go-to guy for getting new gear made/upgraded (if they have craft magic arms/armor). Have the wizard make friends with a supplier for magic item crafting materials. Have the rogue make friends with people in the black market.
Very quickly the players realize that their characters seem boring next to the NPCs unless they step their game up and they start giving their characters some personality (even if it isn't much, it can take time to develop). Giving benefits for getting into the game in this fashion makes it work a bit better for the extra power-gamey types.
Important factor: Do NOT be afraid of the players getting small favors from these NPCs they befriend. If they ask the wizard NPC about arcane things, make the wizard do a roll and maybe even have them do some extra research. Don't do it for free, necessarily, but a 'favor' can sometimes be a good price. It's best if this price doesn't really take time out of the players' hands or the players may grow to resent asking for these favors (so no quests or anything except in extreme circumstances, but asking for help on a skill challenge is fine since you can resolve that time period with a single roll).
The easiest way to add more "role" to roleplaying, is to do so as a DM.
Make the NPCs talk rather than just describe what they were trying to say. Give them personalities and have them be important to the story in some fashion (though not necessarily in an obvious way). Make sure you give even the most worthless NPC at least a tiny hint of personality. Make it so the player characters could actually cultivate relationships and have them matter. Have the fighter become friends with a good local blacksmith and have him be the go-to guy for getting new gear made/upgraded (if they have craft magic arms/armor). Have the wizard make friends with a supplier for magic item crafting materials. Have the rogue make friends with people in the black market.
Very quickly the players realize that their characters seem boring next to the NPCs unless they step their game up and they start giving their characters some personality (even if it isn't much, it can take time to develop). Giving benefits for getting into the game in this fashion makes it work a bit better for the extra power-gamey types.
Important factor: Do NOT be afraid of the players getting small favors from these NPCs they befriend. If they ask the wizard NPC about arcane things, make the wizard do a roll and maybe even have them do some extra research. Don't do it for free, necessarily, but a 'favor' can sometimes be a good price. It's best if this price doesn't really take time out of the players' hands or the players may grow to resent asking for these favors (so no quests or anything except in extreme circumstances, but asking for help on a skill challenge is fine since you can resolve that time period with a single roll).
That backs up what I was going at and more.
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That backs up what I was going at and more.
Now I just need to start practicing that ;) I haven't DMed in a while, though, so I'll probably try it on my next game. The thing I wrote was based on how I see it work with other DMs. Especially with a particular DM who went out of his way to make a huge cast, and it really made the game a lot of fun.
Any suggestions for if you are not the DM?
While playing, I do play my characters roles, this sometimes contradicts what the other players perceive as sound tactical judgment. My characters don't do the optimal combat move at the optimal moment because to them (the character) other things seem much more important.
I guess the only option is to work with the DM and see if he/she can't take some suggestions on Role playing and incorporate them.
OR explain more, as my character does what they do, as to WHY they are doing it?
That backs up what I was going at and more.Now I just need to start practicing that ;) I haven't DMed in a while, though, so I'll probably try it on my next game. The thing I wrote was based on how I see it work with other DMs. Especially with a particular DM who went out of his way to make a huge cast, and it really made the game a lot of fun.
That extra work tends to pay off in good RP value immediately and over time.
Look at my PBP example above, though it is less than what I normally do as I got pressed for time and did not have the right 4-NPC sheet on me at the time.
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Any suggestions for if you are not the DM?
While playing, I do play my characters roles, this sometimes contradicts what the other players perceive as sound tactical judgment. My characters don't do the optimal combat move at the optimal moment because to them (the character) other things seem much more important.
I guess the only option is to work with the DM and see if he/she can't take some suggestions on Role playing and incorporate them.
OR explain more, as my character does what they do, as to WHY they are doing it?
Talk to your DM and make sure your players are okay with it. Some people play just to smash things and you don't want to ruin the fun for everyone.
If your DM starts supporting you by adding interesting NPCs then I imagine any player that has a half of a role-playing heart in them will start going with it. If you still have the one guy who doesn't like that sort of play, then you can still tug on his power-gamer strings by giving benefits to befriending NPCs (such as the 'Fighter befriends a blacksmith' thing above).
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The GM sets the tone. If they don't or encourage RPing it's just not going to happen. If you are player you first have to convince the GM it is a good idea and/or the other players.
The best thing you can do to encourage it is, stay in character engage the NPC's in character. Such as when you get to the Inn of the town, stay in character and try and get the GM to play out getting rooms and asking about the town. If the other players join in all the better.
Other than that all you can do is tell your GM you would like to see more of it and tell them you will help carry things like the example I used above. Best of luck either way, I have been in groups where the GM had no interest in RPing and they just never had RPing as he would just ignore any attempts at RPing.
Well if the GM is set against RP.
Then ask him if he would like a break from GMing and volunteer to run a module (should work as GMs would like a break now and then).
Run a module and run it exact or similar to mine above or do with your own RP style and have them interact with the NPCs and make sure the NPCs give real responses.
After the module is done ask the GM and players if they liked how you ran the module and did it feel more alive, if the answer is yes, then you did your job to convince the GM and players that RP is a good thing to add to the game. The GM may add RP when he continues the current game and the other players may start Roleplaying as well.
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Play a different game.
If your players are getting really caught up in crunch heavy, combat heavy, character optimization heavy games, then take a break from D&D and try some other games out.
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It's not really something I think you can attempt to change without being the DM.
I guess you could try to get your DM into a game (as a player) with a DM who happens to be great at the role-play stuff, and runs an amazingly fun game: chances are you'll see a change in the direction you want when your DM comes back home and wants to run games just as awesome.
Apart from that, trying to role-play as a player in a group that isn't into it (with a DM who isn't into it) is more likely to get you a reputation for being 'difficult' or 'slowing the game down', I'm afraid to say. The main thing is probably not to push too hard - you don't want to come across as the 'fun police' when everyone else is enjoying the game. As others have mentioned, you could try to engage the NPCs in-character, maybe send your detailed character background to the DM in the hopes that he'll incorporate some of the potential hooks you've included... but that's just the sort of thing which could be pushing too hard. In the end you know your group, and how much you can get away with, better than any of us ever will. The main thing is to make sure you all keep having fun!
Deadlands and 7th sea have a nice system with chips/drama dice. For deadlands whenever you do something really cool, or act out one of your flaws you get a chip which can be used on rerolls or to get bonuses. In 7th sea whenever you do something really cool the dm can toss you a drama die.
so BltzKrg242 still looking of more Role in your Roleplaying?
Next time everyone makes characters, have them come up with stories and exploits that their characters have supposedly done before joining up with the current group. Then encourage them to share/tell these stories while at the inn or sitting around the camp fire. It can bring out a lot of background and depth to their characters that normally doesn't happen until later in most campaigns when they rehash things that they actually did while playing these particular characters. Great way to speed up that process.