I know that an erratta/faq has already been posted about this spell, but I think there needs to be another look taken at it. If this spell is spammed, you can hold any creature not immune to mind affecting effects in place and make them do nothing if the save is failed for as many times as you can cast it.
I would think that wands of Terrible Remorse would be in super high demand, and weeping and wailing would be going on all across Golarion. Imagine a 3rd level party of 4 armed with 4 wands of terrible remorse, going up against a 20th level wizard... the wizard will pass every save, really, and therefore have 200 rounds of being able to do nothing? that is an imbalance of power, in my humble opinion.
Oh, and Frigid Touch, staggered with no save as a 2nd level spell? that will kill a spellcaster really fast if he is threatened by someone who has disruptive and/or spellbreaker, which the Magus can now get as arcana.
I would think that wands of Terrible Remorse would be in super high demand, and weeping and wailing would be going on all across Golarion. Imagine a 3rd level party of 4 armed with 4 wands of terrible remorse, going up against a 20th level wizard... the wizard will pass every save, really, and therefore have 200 rounds of being able to do nothing? that is an imbalance of power, in my humble opinion.
The wizard can choose to fail his save, take a few points of damage, and then follow it up with Meteor Swarm, Weird, Prismatic Sphere, Mass Hold Monster, take your pick, really.
What's more scary is a party of 4 armed with wands of Enervation and losing 4d4 levels as a ranged touch attack each round, no save (but you do get SR).
GMs will find reasons to justify allowing targets to willingly fail their saves once they realize that's the loophole for this spell. 1d8+N damage/round for a handful of rounds isn't a big deal for a 4th level spell.
do you really want a spell to exist where it is better to fail the save every time?
do you really want a spell to exist where it is better to fail the save every time?
I'm not sure it is better to fail it all the time. If it is only cast once, losing a turn is preferable to taking Nd8 points of damage over time. If someone plans to spam the spell to exploit a "flaw", then countering by failing your save is a better option.
Seems like when the measures are expensive and countermeasures are cheap, there won't be builds designed to exploit the "flaw" and the spell will probably get used more as it was intended.
do you really want a spell to exist where it is better to fail the save every time?
More importantly for this to be the case a spell that requires the target to make a spellcraft to know that resisting is more likely to get them killed than just going with it.
do you really want a spell to exist where it is better to fail the save every time?I'm not sure it is better to fail it all the time. If it is only cast once, losing a turn is preferable to taking Nd8 points of damage over time. If someone plans to spam the spell to exploit a "flaw", then countering by failing your save is a better option.
Seems like when the offense and defense are in balance like this, there won't be builds designed to exploit the "flaw" and the spell will probably get used more as it was intended.
Don't know your parties but most groups i run with would love to get one free round on the BBEG even if the spell said it could only be cast on a target once every 24 hours it would be rough because of the damage output of a party who moves into postion then takes away the BBEG's ability to fight back or even just run if he makes his save.
More importantly for this to be the case a spell that requires the target to make a spellcraft to know that resisting is more likely to get them killed than just going with it.
That's strictly in the realm of the GM. I can see ways outside of spellcraft where a GM could rule the target could sensibly choose to fail a save.
That's strictly in the realm of the GM. I can see ways outside of spellcraft where a GM could rule the target could sensibly choose to fail a save.
Actually it's in the realm of the Skill Spellcraft.
If you group accepts them thats fine however I as both a player and a DM would have hard acceptance of an enemy who can't tell the difference between the spells rolling his save verus dominate but choosing to fail on TR.
And I'm sure i'm not the only one that would.
Don't know your parties but most groups i run with would love to get one free round on the BBEG even if the spell said it could only be cast on a target once every 24 hours it would be rough because of the damage output of a party who moves into postion then takes away the BBEG's ability to fight back or even just run if he makes his save.
Here's an even better one for you.
Make a ranged touch attack, and the subject is automatically blinded for a round, no save, no SR. Better than having them just lose their actions, IMHO, because you can sneak attack or escape out of their sight.
Since the spell only makes you save on your own turn, when they have already hit you with the spell and you are already affected by it, I think that it is pretty clear to even characters without Spellcraft that this spell is making them feel really really bad and not be dominated, feared, or such. At that point they aren't trying to avoid being hit by the spell, because they are already under it's control.
Still though, I dislike attacks spells that produce worse effects upon saving. There shouldn't be common circumstance where saving against an effect should be more deadly than rolling poorly.
Don't know your parties but most groups i run with would love to get one free round on the BBEG even if the spell said it could only be cast on a target once every 24 hours it would be rough because of the damage output of a party who moves into postion then takes away the BBEG's ability to fight back or even just run if he makes his save.Here's an even better one for you.
Make a ranged touch attack, and the subject is automatically blinded for a round, no save, no SR. Better than having them just lose their actions, IMHO, because you can sneak attack or escape out of their sight, and they no longer threaten.
Decent against foes where blinded works but with TR the group could
Rnd 1 move into postion for max damage rogue flanking and what not. Hold till after BBEG if need to prevent him moving. Sor cast from wand at end of the turn.
Rnd 2 Sneak attack/Full attack/Cast SOD or SOS spells. If not dead use wand again.
Against an enemy with no spellcraft they keep trying to save and if the make it get owned if they have a low will save will probably fail the rnd 2 SOD or SOS spell thats cast.
If you group accepts them thats fine however I as both a player and a DM would have hard acceptance of an enemy who can't tell the difference between the spells rolling his save verus dominate but choosing to fail on TR.
And I'm sure i'm not the only one that would.
Here's an example where you could figure it out organically, depending on how the GM has spells effect targets.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Success. You spend the round crying to yourself."
Next round.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Fail. You decide you should punish yourself for your misdeeds and bash your arm with your pommel."
"I charge a bad guy and attack."
Next Round.
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Success. You spend the round crying to yourself."
Next round.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save."
"Ah ha! Maybe I should fail it intentionally!"
That's one example of learning in-game to make a decision like that. Another thing is that perhaps creatures with animal intelligence may have ancestral knowledge or instincts that guide them to making the right decisions.
Strictly in the realm of the GM.
Since the spell only makes you save on your own turn, when they have already hit you with the spell and you are already affected by it, I think that it is pretty clear to even characters without Spellcraft that this spell is making them feel really really bad and not be dominated, feared, or such.
But they have no clue what the result of failing is.
Hmm this spell makes me feel so bad about my choices in life i can't even fight back maybe i should just stop fighting the spell if they cast it again.
1.) If you saved its over after one round you don't know till you save after the next casting if the caster even used the same spell without spellcraft.
2.) Considering that all other spells you know about the best outcome for you comes from resisting why would you assume this one to be differnet.
If you group accepts them thats fine however I as both a player and a DM would have hard acceptance of an enemy who can't tell the difference between the spells rolling his save verus dominate but choosing to fail on TR.
And I'm sure i'm not the only one that would.
Here's an example where you could figure it out organically, depending on how the GM has spells effect targets.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Success. You spend the round crying to yourself."
Next round.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Fail. You decide you should punish yourself for your misdeeds and bash your arm with your pommel."
"I charge a bad guy and attack."
Next Round.
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save. Success. You spend the round crying to yourself."
Next round.
"The dude with a funny hat says something and points his finger at you".
"At the start of your turn, you feel sorrowful and ashamed for what you've done. Make a save."
"Ah ha! Maybe I should fail it intentionally!"
That's one example of learning in-game to make a decision like that. Another thing is that perhaps creatures with animal intelligence may have ancestral knowledge or instincts that guide them to making the right decisions.
Strictly in the realm of the GM.
Dude in pointy hat switches to Dominate since you keep failing (he doesn't know its on purpose he thinks your save is low) his mental command is for you to feel sorrowful nand remorseful. You choose to fail. Game over.
Why is this becasue without Spellcraft you can't tell if he is casting TR Dominate or even Fireball until its too late to matter.
Dude in pointy hat switches to Dominate since you keep failing (he doesn't know its on purpose he thinks your save is low) his mental command is for you to feel sorrowful nand remorseful. You choose to fail. Game over.
Why is this becasue without Spellcraft you can't tell if he is casting TR Dominate or even Fireball until its too late to matter.
One subtle difference, with TR, you save on your turn, not when the spell is cast.
You'll know on your turn if it was the same feeling as last time, and whether you want to do something about it.
It all depends on how the GM decides magical effects work and are communicated. That isn't defined.
It can be as little as "Roll a save", and then being told what type after the die hits the table so you can bring no additional resources to bear.
Or it could be, "You feel an evil foreign presence entering your mind, endangering your very soul. Roll a Will save to retain control."
Strictly in the realm of the GM.
Since the spell only makes you save on your own turn, when they have already hit you with the spell and you are already affected by it, I think that it is pretty clear to even characters without Spellcraft that this spell is making them feel really really bad and not be dominated, feared, or such.But they have no clue what the result of failing is.
Hmm this spell makes me feel so bad about my choices in life i can't even fight back maybe i should just stop fighting the spell if they cast it again.
1.) If you saved its over after one round you don't know till you save after the next casting if the caster even used the same spell without spellcraft.
2.) Considering that all other spells you know about the best outcome for you comes from resisting why would you assume this one to be differnet.
I think that it is obvious to the target what the penalties of failure are. If you are under the effect of glitterdust or hold person I think that it is similarly clear to them what the saving throws during their turn are for. There should be no thought that the saving throw against glitterdust is anything but trying to regain ones sense of vision and that succeeding at the saving throw against hold person will let them move their own body again. If you are subjected to both, I think that it is clear to you which saving throw will leave you blind and which will leave you paralyzed.
If you are under the effect of terrible remorse (as written right now), I believe that when they make the saving throw on their turn, that they understand that the spell is making them feel terrible remorse and that their options are to continue attacking while inflicting wounds on themselves out of spell induced guilt, or (if they are willful enough) to spend the turn throwing off the spell.
They are already under the effect of the spell, I think it is clear that the they know what emotion the spell is compelling and what their options are.
Dude in pointy hat switches to Dominate since you keep failing (he doesn't know its on purpose he thinks your save is low) his mental command is for you to feel sorrowful nand remorseful. You choose to fail. Game over.
Why is this becasue without Spellcraft you can't tell if he is casting TR Dominate or even Fireball until its too late to matter.
Once again. Dominate grants a save when the spell is cast, before you are ever effected.
Terrible remorse grants a saving throw on your turn, after you are already be affected by the spell.
They are clearly different circumstances.
Once again if it works for your group go for it.
We are in the rules board and per RAW if you want to know anything about a spell being cast you need spellcraft. Period.
Once again if it works for your group go for it.
We are in the rules board and per RAW if you want to know anything about a spell being cast you need spellcraft. Period.
Totally agree that to identify a spell as it is being cast, that's a Spellcraft check. However, that's not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is recognizing the differences between spells after they were cast. There's also a difference between identifying the name of the spell, and being able to observe its effects.
I'm pretty sure characters can recognize a fireball or Magic Missile after they've seen a few. They just don't know that those spells are the ones being cast at the time.
Since TR is something that you may repeatedly save on your turn (after it has been cast), you have a chance to interact with it and gather some intelligence. It makes you feel a certain way, and whether you succeed in fighting the feelings, or accept the feelings, that has repeatable consequences. You may not know what the name of the spell is, but you can figure out what the spell does through in-game experience.
Whether or not the GM wants to fill you in beforehand about the consequences of success and failure is also a matter of taste, and not defined by the rules.
And what I am saying, is that having a spell where failing the save is a better option than passing the save is not a good thing to have.
Once again if it works for your group go for it.
We are in the rules board and per RAW if you want to know anything about a spell being cast you need spellcraft. Period.
Alright. The spell isn't being cast when this saving throw hits though. Again, this saving throw is after the spell has been done and cast. When the character is being affected by the spell.
It is like telling a blinded character who was glitterdusted that they have no idea what that saving throw at the end of their turn is for. It could be someone trying to dominate them every turn, if they pass it may result in them damaging of their eyes with their weapon, they have no idea because they don't have spellcraft. I think that is not the RAW and I think it is within the boundaries of the rules for the blinded character to know that the saving throw at the end means that their blindness may get better.
I know that an erratta/faq has already been posted about this spell, but I think there needs to be another look taken at it. If this spell is spammed, you can hold any creature not immune to mind affecting effects in place and make them do nothing if the save is failed for as many times as you can cast it.
I would think that wands of Terrible Remorse would be in super high demand, and weeping and wailing would be going on all across Golarion. Imagine a 3rd level party of 4 armed with 4 wands of terrible remorse, going up against a 20th level wizard... the wizard will pass every save, really, and therefore have 200 rounds of being able to do nothing? that is an imbalance of power, in my humble opinion.
Oh, and Frigid Touch, staggered with no save as a 2nd level spell? that will kill a spellcaster really fast if he is threatened by someone who has disruptive and/or spellbreaker, which the Magus can now get as arcana.
Any mid to high level wizard worth his salt will have mind protection.If its not a creature that has immunity to mind spells you are giving up a character action to make the monster/NPC give up its action. I only see this working well in a situation where there is one opponent and the party has action economy. In my experience, in those cases, the party usually wins quickly anyway
Once again if it works for your group go for it.
We are in the rules board and per RAW if you want to know anything about a spell being cast you need spellcraft. Period.
Alright. The spell isn't being cast when this saving throw hits though. Again, this saving throw is after the spell has been done and cast. When the character is being affected by the spell.
It is like telling a blinded character who was glitterdusted that they have no idea what that saving throw at the end of their turn is for. It could be someone trying to dominate them every turn, if they pass it may result in them damaging of their eyes with their weapon, they have no idea because they don't have spellcraft. I think that is not the RAW and I think it is within the boundaries of the rules for the blinded character to know that the saving throw at the end means that their blindness may get better.
In giving this more thought, how do characters know they should not try to save vs. harmless spells, such as cures? They get Will saves too:
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless)
If you can't tell the difference between the spells from an unknown ally healing you, and a dominated ally harming you, then you've got a problem. To be safe, you should be always making your saves while in combat vs. all spells in that case.
In my opinion, you must have some additional information to go by to make a decision from the spell itself that doesn't require a spellcraft roll. "You feel a soothing energy start to enter your body" vs "You feel a corrupting energy start to enter your body".
This spell is broken and can be made more broken if combined with dazing via a rod or just spell perfection.
Then you can't even throw the save, because it is save and you don't do jack for a round or don't save and don't do jack for 4 rounds.
To foil your voluntarily not saving, I don't even need to add dazing for every cast. I just need to mix it up. Then unless the BBEG is telepathic there is no way for him to predict when it is safe to give up the save.
Certainly a nice combo, if allowed. All depends on how GMs interpret:
Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.
Things like fireball clearly inflict damage. But, one could argue that Terrible Remorse itself isn't causing the damage. You are damaging yourself. But that's a can of worms probably more suited for another thread.
If allowed, and campaigns devolve into armies of 7th level bards running around with lesser metamagic rods of Dazing casting TR 3 times before fleeing, house rule it and move on.
Given the stink people are making about the spell, wouldn't surprise me to see another errata. As they add new material, there will likely be unintended interactions from spells like this.
Any mid to high level wizard worth his salt will have mind protection.If its not a creature that has immunity to mind spells you are giving up a character action to make the monster/NPC give up its action. I only see this working well in a situation where there is one opponent and the party has action economy. In my experience, in those cases, the party usually wins quickly anyway
Mind blank doesn't give immunity to mind affecting effects, only a +8 to the saving through, and my point was that making the saving throw is the worse option. Mind blank is also an 8th level spell, so only high level Casters have access to it.
I am thinking spell immunity and/or globe of invulnerability is actually a more potent defense against both Frigid touch and Terrible Remorse.
Any mid to high level wizard worth his salt will have mind protection.If its not a creature that has immunity to mind spells you are giving up a character action to make the monster/NPC give up its action. I only see this working well in a situation where there is one opponent and the party has action economy. In my experience, in those cases, the party usually wins quickly anywayMind blank doesn't give immunity to mind affecting effects, only a +8 to the saving through, and my point was that making the saving throw is the worse option. Mind blank is also an 8th level spell, so only high level Casters have access to it.
I am thinking spell immunity and/or globe of invulnerability is actually a more potent defense against both Frigid touch and Terrible Remorse.
Or protection from alignment, if you know the alignment
Or protection from alignment, if you know the alignment
Love it! BBEG keeps three 1st level "interns" around to cast Pro from Good, Pro from Neutral, and Pro from Evil on him at the start of combat if the Inner Sanctum is breached. Problem solved, lol!
Or protection from alignment, if you know the alignmentLove it! BBEG keeps three 1st level "interns" around to cast Pro from Good, Pro from Neutral, and Pro from Evil on him at the start of combat if the Inner Sanctum is breached. Problem solved, lol!
Actually.... that does sound wickedly effective... thanks community :) I was about to go and give all my guys scrolls of spell immunity, but you brought to light the usefulness of a spell that I almost never considered using, except when the Intellect Devourer is involved :)
I don't think there is a protection from neutral. So a true neutral Bard with a rod of dazing is the most powerful caster in the game.
True dat!
Actually.... that does sound wickedly effective... thanks community :) I was about to go and give all my guys scrolls of spell immunity, but you brought to light the usefulness of a spell that I almost never considered using, except when the Intellect Devourer is involved :)
No Pro from Neutral, no problem! (since it sounds like you are the GM)
1 week later, ta da!
No Pro from Neutral, no problem! (since it sounds like you are the GM)
1 week later, ta da!
Rolling your own Pro from Neutral isn't even excessive cheese for a home game. I think it's absence is more of an oversight when going from 3.5 to PF more than anything else. In 3.5, a Pro from Neutral version would only have helped with the deflection/resistance bonus aspect. Pro from Evil worked on all enchantments regardless of alignment, as well as blocked all non-good summon creatures. The fact that those are now restricted in PF and no neutral variant exists seems like an error of omission.
A simple houserule for terrible remorse is you could switch which happens on the failed save to what happens on the save when they make it so they do not autofail it to get out of it.
Although terrible remorse trap that resets itself costs a ton but will make saves so if used in conjunction with alarms so gaurds comes reseting each round.