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Does the evolution Reach work:
A) on all attacks (i.e. applying it to Claw so that all Claw attacks that the eidolon has gains Reach)
B) on a single attack (i.e. a single Claw gains Reach)
C) on an attack granted from an evolution (i.e. both Claw attacks from a single set gain Reach)
References from PRD:
Does the evolution Reach work:
A) on all attacks (i.e. applying it to Claw so that all Claw attacks that the eidolon has gains Reach)
B) on a single attack (i.e. a single Claw gains Reach)
C) on an attack granted from an evolution (i.e. both Claw attacks from a single set gain Reach)References from PRD:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
B. One attack, so one claw, as each claw is specifically called an attack.
B. One attack, so one claw, as each claw is specifically called an attack.
That's what I want to think. The reason it came up is because Reach doesn't specifically state it can be taken more than once, which means (due to an entry in the Evolutions bit), you can only ever apply it to a single attack, ever.
B. One attack, so one claw, as each claw is specifically called an attack.That's what I want to think. The reason it came up is because Reach doesn't specifically state it can be taken more than once, which means (due to an entry in the Evolutions bit), you can only ever apply it to a single attack, ever.
We looked at it for a while. We agree that, RAW, it's hard to interpret it any other way, but we really wonder what the intent was...
I would take the evolution if it applied to both claw attacks from one limbs evolution, even if it didn't apply to ALL of the claw attacks, but having one really long arm isn't an image I want to have for my eidolon. Chances are it won't matter, because I've already used the 15 points it has up, but this matter did puzzle me as I considered it.
Just to put my opinion out here: I will be making the ruling in my games that this evolution modifies the natural attacks gained by any one OTHER evolution. Therefore, you can gain one very long tentacle for 2 points (1 for tentacle, 1 for reach), extra long horns for a gore attack for 3 points (2 for gore, 1 for reach), or two long claw attacks for 4 points (2 for arms, 1 for claws, 1 for reach that applies to both claw attacks gained from previous evolution).
We would still like to know what the general consensus is, though.
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I think I'd work better if it could be taken multiple times and each time could apply to up to two attacks of a particular type or from a particular limb or set of limbs.
i.e.
2 claws (long arms)
1 bite and 1 gore (long neck)
wings (it really doesn't make sense to have 1 beefy wing)
2 tails/tentacles
I probably wouldn't allow it on leg claws or hooves without a really compelling reason.
Heck, I might even allow it to work on more attacks if they're all secondary. (i.e. up to 4 tentacles)
I think I'd work better if it could be taken multiple times and each time could apply to up to two attacks of a particular type or from a particular limb or set of limbs.
i.e.
2 claws (long arms)
1 bite and 1 gore (long neck)
wings (it really doesn't make sense to have 1 beefy wing)
2 tails/tentaclesI probably wouldn't allow it on leg claws or hooves without a really compelling reason.
Heck, I might even allow it to work on more attacks if they're all secondary. (i.e. up to 4 tentacles)
Adding 5 feet of reach to a mess load of tentacle attacks sounds awesome, but it opens up a cheese factory. Tentacles cost only 1 evolution point each; most other attack evolutions require 2 or more points. Limbs (arms or legs) costs 2, and 1 for claws or hooves.
Reach does not explicitly say that it can be taken multiple times, so I assume that per RAW, it can't be. But again, choosing to add reach to a single claw out of a pair makes for a freaky looking eidolon.
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Base Form: Biped
Give it wings, and tentacle attacks. Now all you have to do is give it frightful presence. Boom, you have your very own Cthuluhu!!!!
I don't think that having reach for only one of your claw attacks necessarily means that one arm or leg is longer than the other. It could just mean that, for the eidolon to stretch itself far enough to make a reach attack, it throws itself too far off balance to make more than one attack. That might also be why a serpentine eidolon with a gore attack might have reach for a bite attack but not a gore attack -- when it stretches its neck out enough to do a bite with reach, it just does not have the leverage to do an effecitve gore attack as well. At least, that is the way I interpret it.
Only applies to a single claw, as others have said. Compare to:
One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Reach says "one attack," not "attack form." I suppose Reach isn't restricted to natural attacks, though, so you could evolve weapon proficiency and get Lunge without the AC penatly. And then also take Lunge. And then hit it with Enlarge Person.
Summoner: If I choose the reach evolution for my eidolon, how many of its attacks gains increased reach?
The ability description says "pick one attack," not "pick one attack type." So if your eidolon has two claws and you pick "claw" for the reach evolution, only one claw gets increased reach. (The reach evolution is intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws.)
—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/26/13
It's sad that you can't select the evolution more than once. Because you can't have the reach evolution on any other attack beside bite/gore/tail if you care about symmetry !
Honestly , what makes it funny is that they could just have limited it , saying it would only work for the bite, but nope , left it open lols.
The good thing for me is , since they never closed this , i just talked to my GM and got it to my great sword , woot!
Well... if having the reach evo work on weapon attacks is cool in your game, as is good. But beware the nerf-bat once your Eidolon gets large evo and you cast enlarge person on it. Doubt the GM will like that.
Seriously, to limit the reach evolution to natural attacks is good design. And to make it either selectable multiple times OR to apply to an attack evolution group (head - for gore and bite reach, or limbs-claws to get reach on both of them, or wing buffet, for both wings to get reach) would have been better.
Last, if they want to keep the reach evolution a one time pick, they should limit the attacks they want it to apply to, which seems to be bite/tail/gore (and maybe tentacle and slam) evolutions.
EDIT : a reach slam attack with pull evolution. Now that's weird.
Well... if having the reach evo work on weapon attacks is cool in your game, as is good. But beware the nerf-bat once your Eidolon gets large evo and you cast enlarge person on it. Doubt the GM will like that.
Seriously, to limit the reach evolution to natural attacks is good design. And to make it either selectable multiple times OR to apply to an attack evolution group (head - for gore and bite reach, or limbs-claws to get reach on both of them, or wing buffet, for both wings to get reach) would have been better.
Last, if they want to keep the reach evolution a one time pick, they should limit the attacks they want it to apply to, which seems to be bite/tail/gore (and maybe tentacle and slam) evolutions.
EDIT : a reach slam attack with pull evolution. Now that's weird.
Hehe , i agree with you, adding a list to what it works with would have been better for sure , honestly , to me the best combo is , bite(reach) + trip + pull , then take combat reflexes.
And dont worry , while i do use reach on my gs i do keep my eidolon down from the min/max thing. The other party members are not able to do it , and thus if i go all out , completely within the rules , it would become a problem anyway.