Surprise Rounds and Pounce

[Evershifter]

So, this issue came up in our game recently, and rather than lose serious gaming time arguing the issue, we glossed over it for the time being and sought to see what the community thought later on. Well, now it's later on, so...

Surprise:

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Charging:

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Pounce:

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Alrighty. So the situation is thus:
PCs enter a room wherein hide a pair of goblins riding lizards, hiding in the corners. The first few PCs in the room fail to notice them, combat begins with Monsters having surprise.
During the Surprise round the goblins only get a single action, which they use to charge as per the charge rules stating that you can perform a charge action if you are limited to only a single standard action, however you only go your normal speed (rather than twice normal) and then deliver a single attack.
Our issue was then the lizards wanted to use Pounce to make their full attack. Normally, outside of a surprise round, there's no problem, that's what Pounce does. However, some of us felt that it was inappropriate. In a situation where you can get only a single action, a fighter with multiple attacks cannot take them if he starts a surprise round immediately adjacent to his opponent.
I guess there are some arguments either way. I can see how, RAW, this makes sense. Maybe we're misreading the Charge rules by allowing a charge during a surprise round.

What do you all think?

[Kolokotroni]

I think by raw it is correct, and in terms of it being appropriate or not, it falls into the same category as pounce as a whole. Its powerful, but the creatures with it are build around it. Most pounce creatures are ambush predators (I'm looking at you big cats). If they couldn't pounce when surprising their prey, the ability and the creature themselves would not make coherent sense when considering the real life behavior of these kinds of creatures.

Is it 'fair'? Probably not. But it does seem like a reasonable way for the rules to work to give the proper impact of what it is like to be ambushed by a pouncing creature. And in the end I think that is more important then any balance concerns.

[Asphesteros]

Kolokotroni wrote:

..it does seem like a reasonable way for the rules to work to give the proper impact of what it is like to be ambushed by a pouncing creature.

Right, I think it's not only appropriate - it's the point of the ability.

Think of a tiger hiding in the bushes leaping to pounce on a gizelle.

The whole idea is it gets to attack with both it's claws and bite in that first moment of surprise.

[james maissen]

Evershifter wrote:

I guess there are some arguments either way. I can see how, RAW, this makes sense. Maybe we're misreading the Charge rules by allowing a charge during a surprise round.

What do you all think?

Well in 3.5 I always felt that pounce allowed one to still make a full attack after charging rather than empowered one to do so.

Meaning that if something with pounce were staggered, slowed or otherwise restricted to standard actions then they could not full attack on a pounce.

I still think that this is a fair way to go as I agree that the other doesn't sit well.

Mind you with feats like 'look out' that allow a character to take a full round action in a surprise round I find the ground less firm on which to stand here.

-James